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Liberal America

Submitted by classicliberal2 on Sat, 10/17/2009 - 13:47

An August Gallup poll yielded up an intriguing result: self-identified conservatives outnumbered self-identified liberals in all 50 states. This led to much back-slapping in conservative circles in the weeks after its release. Conservatives are on the ropes; it was a handy way to bolster morale, and there wasn't a great deal of focus on what the poll really meant. It went hand-in-glove with many conservative commentaries in recent years about America being a conservative nation.

The hard, cold political reality, though--the one that's still there after the back-slapping--is that America isn't a conservative nation, and never has been. On issue after issues, Americans are  not only with the liberals, but with them overwhelmingly. A few Google searches offer a glimpse of the polling this year:

--An AP/Roper poll just a few days ago showed that 64% of Americans oppose the war in Iraq. 67% told the CBS/New York Times poll in September that the was wasn't even worth fighting.

--On the matter of health care, Americans have favored a single-payer plan, wherein the government provides health insurance for all, by about 60%, a number which has been stable for years. This is well to the left of any of the healh care "reform" measures presently being debated in congress.

--66% told the CBS/New York Times poll in June they favored either gay marriage or gay civil unions. More importantly, opposition is centered on older adults (those over 40) and heavily concentrated in the elderly (those over 65)--the younger generations have adopted the more liberal views.

--A solid majority of Americans favor abortion rights, and have for decades. The Republican party platform position--a blanket ban on abortions without exception--polls around 6%.

--The polling on global warming has shown huge majorities (over 60%) concerned about the problem for the last 11 years (and probably further back--that's the info I was able to track down with a Google search). The number, as measured by Gallup in May, had dropped from the year before (down to 57%), but it has briefly gone down before, and the long-term polling is very clear on the point.

And so on. This is the case on issue after issue. One is, in fact, hard pressed to find a single major public policy issue on which the liberals don't hold an overwhelming advantage in public sentiment. Conservatism is overrepresented in just about every major institution, a consequence (primarily) of vastly superior monetary resources, but the people are with the liberals. It's a significant mountain for conservatives to climb.

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Try again.

Submitted by chemjeff on Sat, 10/17/2009 - 15:23.

First, you didn't cite any sources for any of your claims.  So I'm not going to accept at face value your absurd claims that Americans have favored single-payer by 60+% majories for years and years.

Second, there are many ideological reasons to support a given position, and for one to find common cause with the majority liberal position on a specific issue does not necessarily make one a doctrinaire liberal.  For instance, "concern over global warming" does not necessarily equate to support for cap-and-trade.  I'm concerned over global warming too, but that doesn't mean I favor expansive energy taxes to fuel still larger government bureaucracies that may or may not have any effect on global warming.  It is quite easy to believe that a person may be opposed to the war in Iraq out of a general sense of war fatigue, but would not necessarily favor an immediate withdrawal, or cutting off funds for the troops, or ending the war according to a fixed timetable, all of which are liberal ideas seriously considered over the past 2 years.  Personally I'm opposed to the death penalty, primarily for libertarian reasons, but that doesn't mean I accept some of the more ridiculous liberal arguments against the death penalty, such as "the death penalty is too expensive".  (Well duh - it's not intrinsically expensive, it is only expensive currently because the process is so dragged out by pointless litigation initiated by liberals.  Talk about a self-fulfilling argument!)  And my opposition to the death penalty certainly doesn't transform me into a doctrinaire Obama-supporting liberal.

Finally, while I think your post has a teensy weensy about of merit, only in that I don't think the public is as conservative as most conservatives tend to think it is, you certainly haven't made the case that it's as liberal as you think it is.

First, you didn't cite any

Submitted by classicliberal2 on Sun, 10/18/2009 - 19:27.

First, you didn't cite any sources for any of your claims.

Hard to take anything you have to say terribly seriously when you lie in the very first line of your reply. From my post:

"An AP/Roper poll just a few days ago"

"the CBS/New York Times poll in June"

"as measured by Gallup in May"

Though wrong, you seem otherwise honest. Play this straight, and we'll get along a lot better.

So I'm not going to accept at face value your absurd claims that Americans have favored single-payer by 60+% majories for years and years.

There's nothing "absurd" about that. It's what is known as a well-documented fact. That page only compiles polling data going back to 2003. Support for it actually extends back at least as far as the early 1990s (no explicit data to cite on that, but I remember it being a subject of astonished commentary at that time in various lefty venues).

Second, there are many ideological reasons to support a given position, and for one to find common cause with the majority liberal position on a specific issue does not necessarily make one a doctrinaire liberal.  For instance, "concern over global warming" does not necessarily equate to support for cap-and-trade.

You miss the point. The boilerplate conservative position is that global warming is either "exaggerated" or an outright hoax. The same Gallup poll I cited earlier showed that 66% of Republicans held to that view. The general public still rejects it.

It is quite easy to believe that a person may be opposed to the war in Iraq out of a general sense of war fatigue, but would not necessarily favor an immediate withdrawal, or cutting off funds for the troops, or ending the war according to a fixed timetable, all of which are liberal ideas seriously considered over the past 2 years.

We don't have to guess about something like support for setting a timetable--the data shows that Americans are--once again--overwhelmingly in favor of it, and have been for some time. A Newsweek/Princeton poll from April asked about Obama's then-proposed timetable for withdrawal by 2010 and found that 74% said that was either "about right" or wanted to withdraw even sooner. AP/Roper asked about a timetable in Sept. 2008, and found that 59% favored setting one. An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll found that 60% thought it was a "good idea" to set a timetable. Again, the conservative position is dead-set against any such move; again, the liberal position prevails among the public.

Personally I'm opposed to the death penalty, primarily for libertarian reasons, but that doesn't mean I accept some of the more ridiculous liberal arguments against the death penalty, such as "the death penalty is too expensive".  (Well duh - it's not intrinsically expensive, it is only expensive currently because the process is so dragged out by pointless litigation initiated by liberals.  Talk about a self-fulfilling argument!)  And my opposition to the death penalty certainly doesn't transform me into a doctrinaire Obama-supporting liberal.

My own opposition to the death penalty is along the same lines as yours. Though I'm not so dismissive of expense, it's not any sort of deciding factor for me--I just think the state is too clunky a mechanism to give the power to kill us. Still, that puts both of us well out of the mainstream of the argument; those who agree with us likely don't poll out of single digits. On the other hand, that's one of the very few issues on which the more conservative view--support for the death penalty--does hold a fairly consistent (and large) majority.

Finally, while I think your post has a teensy weensy about of merit, only in that I don't think the public is as conservative as most conservatives tend to think it is, you certainly haven't made the case that it's as liberal as you think it is.

I could make another list of major issues and do the polling research, but, as I suggested in my original post, the results would be the same. On most major issues, it isn't even close.

Very interesting. Thank you.

Submitted by Frank_T on Mon, 10/19/2009 - 10:12.

I think chemjeff's post indicates that "liberals" and "conservatives" tend to agree, in essence, on most issues (other than specific policy issues). Where a perceived disagreement exists, I suspect that much of that has to do with an idealogical language barrier (and also, to a great extent, on unfair generalizations on the part of both sides).

Classicliberal, I think your data supports this idea. However, I don't think it is fair to generalize that "conservatives" are necessarily against the issues that you mentioned.  Chemjeff, while apparently conservative, does not seem to fit that generalization very well at all.

I remember reading an article about a self-identified pro-lifer who was against making abortion illegal (I thought - isn't this person really a pro-choicer then?). This person was against abortion but also against government interference with a woman's decision making. Apparently, many pro-lifers, if not a plurality or majority, fall into this disposition (which is essentially the same as the disposition of most pro-choicers!). It seems that a language barrier and unfair generalizations are largely what separates these two groups.

On the death penalty issue, I'm in agreement with both of you guys. My objection to the death penalty is that government-sactioned killing of this sort is ethically problematic - probably similar to the "libertarian reasons" cited by chemjeff. My opinions on the death penalty are more-or-less on the same page as leftist/progressive viewpoints, and I don't recall ever reading a lefty opinion piece opposing the death penalty that cited cost as the primary objection (Is the idea that "cost" is the main liberal objection another unfair generalization?).

 

Classicliberal, I think your

Submitted by classicliberal2 on Mon, 10/19/2009 - 11:49.

Classicliberal, I think your data supports this idea. However, I don't think it is fair to generalize that "conservatives" are necessarily against the issues that you mentioned.  Chemjeff, while apparently conservative, does not seem to fit that generalization very well at all.

Many polls break down the results by Republican/Democrat or conservative/liberal or by other demographics. There's never 100% agreement on something by any demographic, but when, to use an example I referenced above, 66% of Republicans take the position that global warming is either "exaggerated" or a hoax, it's fair to portray that as the mainline Republican position, and to contrast that with the general population.

I remember reading an article about a self-identified pro-lifer who was against making abortion illegal (I thought - isn't this person really a pro-choicer then?). This person was against abortion but also against government interference with a woman's decision making.

That makes him pro-choice, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Apparently, many pro-lifers, if not a plurality or majority, fall into this disposition (which is essentially the same as the disposition of most pro-choicers!). It seems that a language barrier and unfair generalizations are largely what separates these two groups.

No one likes abortion. The correct dividing line--because we are talking about it as a matter of public policy--is over choice. Will it be the individual or the government making the call? This is, however, an issue on which defining the "conservative" or "Republican" position is tougher than on most of the others I've mentioned. Support for abortion rights tends to cut across the political spectrum. For example, a CBS/New York Times poll in June asked "in general, do you think the Court's decision [in Roe v. Wade] was a good thing or a bad thing?" 74% of Democrats said it was a good thing, so that can fairly be used as their mainline position. But 40% of Republicans also said it was a good thing vs. 51% bad. A lot closer, so hard to generalize (among the general population, 62% said it was a good thing vs. 32% bad). The Republican party apparatus is controlled by anti-choice zealots, and the abortion plank they've adopted at convention for decades, calling for a ban on all abortions, regardless of circumstance, is supported by only 6%-10% of the population (I'd be curious to see a breakdown of how many Republicans/conservatives support such a view).