Closing GITMO: Consequences and Solutions

Although I have opposed the use to which the facilities at Guantanamo are being put for years, the plans which the Obama administration is developing to deal with the remaining terrorists held there present problems which they seem not to have considered and which may be unresolvable.

The Bush administration already released about two thirds of those being held at GITMO. They released all the easy prisoners. They sent home the ones whose countries would welcome them and they tried the ones where the evidence was easy to argue in court. Even so, a significant number of those they freed immediately returned to fighting for al Qaeda or the Taliban or resumed engaging in acts of terrorism. What they've left for Obama to deal with are prisoners who are confirmed to be serious terrorist threats, but against whom the evidence is weak or hard to present, even in a military tribunal, and whose home countries will not take them back because they know what diehard bastards they are, and they have absolute confidence that they will be involved in future violence if given an opportunity.

If we take them out of GITMO either permanently or to face trial, we have to put them somewhere. Evidence suggests that our prisons are already a breeding ground for potential terrorists. The recent terror plots in Miami and New York both originated with Muslim converts who had been radicalized in prison. Allowing these terrorists from GITMO who really are "the worst of the worst" into the prison system where they will be treated by some as celebrities and role models could prove to be disastrous. Even in the relative isolation of a supermax facility their influence would be felt; passed on through the several hundred other terrorists already in the federal and state prison system and the underground communications networks of the prison gangs.

The only alternative would be to put them in a completely separate maximum security facility, either built or adapted to house them, inside the US. Although many governors are trying to keep GITMO prisoners out of their states, governors in states with the most severe economic problems might be persuaded to offer facilities in their states in exchange for federal dollars. Michigan's Governor John Engler has already offered one of the two small maximum security prisons in Michigan's upper peninsula for the purpose. Others are also interested, like the town of Hardin, Montana whose city council voted unanimously to welcome GITMO prisoners to their brand new maximum security prison which remains unoccupied after three years of disputes with state authorities.

So despite the "not in my back yard" attitude which prevails in most states when they envision terrorists as guests in their prisons, there are places which are desperate enough for federal dollars and jobs to take the terrorists, so housing them in the US is certainly feasible. However, aside from the technical difference of being on American soil, a supermax prison devoted solely to GITMO prisoners would not be much different from housing them where they are now. They would still be isolated from other prisoners, likely in a very remote part of the country, and held under uniquely high levels of security. No one has ever escaped from a supermax prison in the US, but keeping the prisoners secure is really the least of the problems.

But even if we put them in prison somewhere else, respect for the rule of law and the Constitution demands that we give them fair trials. Yet there's a reason why the Bush administration was only able to try a handful of them. The evidence against the rest is strong enough to convince most people that they really are dangerous terrorists but it is not sufficient to form an effective case good enough to stand up in US courts which have already rejected the kind of evidence the government is trying to use in many of these cases. There's enough evidence to know they are the "worst of the worst" but it's often not the kind of evidence which is up to the standards of a normal American court. Twenty reliable sources may have told us someone is a terrorist and we may absolutely believe them, but without witnesses to acts of terrorism or physical evidence, a trial may well end in an acquittal which should result in the release of the prisoner. Then what do we do? We can't keep him in the US because he's not a citizen and he really is a dangerous terrorist even if not convicted, so he's not about to get a visa. We can't send him home or to another country because they know who and what he is and won't take him. We can't just release him in the wilds of Waziristan when no one is looking, because he'll just start killing civilians and US soldiers as a recent Pentagon report demonstrates. What do we do that honors our legal system and our Constitution and also protects our people and the world?

President Obama admits he doesn't have a solution, saying "there are no neat and easy answers here." He has a plan but it is expected to be unable to provide a real solution for as many as 100 of the GITMO prisoners who cannot be repatriated or freed in the US. The president seems to be leaning towards holding them indefinitely in the US without trial instead of at Guantanamo, and that's really no solution at all. It's still a violation of their right to a trial and some sort of justice. And if they are going to continue to be held without trial, the prisoners might actually prefer the balmy climate of Cuba to a concrete cell in the frozen wastelands of Montana or northern Michigan.

There aren't a lot of other options. We can't set them free in the US, we can't send them home and we can't legally hold them forever without trial. What does that leave?

It's tempting to apologize to the acquitted terrorist, drop him near the fighting in Waziristan or Somalia with an unloaded AK-47 and then turn a blind eye as a soldier -- perhaps a Pakistani soldier for propriety's sake -- with more common sense than our government, shoots him as an enemy combatant. That wouldn't be nice, and the backlash would be horrendous if it leaked, and it's guaranteed to leak.

Or we could take that idea to a higher and even more draconian level that will appeal to fans of the New World Order. Tag them with the dreaded GPS locator chips which are now being put in dogs by the humane society and which some people are suggesting we put in our kids. Then release them in a terrorist controlled area and track them until they meet up with some terrorists and call in an airstrike or a drone with a Hellfire Missile and take them and their friends out. Even less nice, but we might have plausible deniability if we claimed we targeted the other terrorists, not the recently released guy with the chip.

I can think of only one other slightly less sleazy and considerably more humane solution, which will certainly appeal to the administration's legion of lawyers. Let them go through trial, and as soon as they are set free immediately arrest them on a trumped up charge -- illegal immigration comes to mind -- and imprison them again. Conveniently, our immigration laws are so screwed up we could probably hold them just about forever if we can't find a country to deport them to. This really isn't any different than just leaving them in jail, but they do get a trial and we get a legal fiction to hide behind.

After thinking long and hard and not being able to come up with better solutions than these, I do know one thing for sure. I'm glad I'm not President Obama, because even if he has the wisdom of Solomon, I don't think he can find a solution any better than the ones I outlined. He's in a no-win situation and will pay a high price for whatever inevitably unsatisfactory resolution he finally selects.

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Comments

Interesting Observations, Dave

I appreciate the time on this most important subject and the thought put into the issue.

I believe the only reasons that President Obama is worrying about Gitmo so much is that it's a perceived  public relations problem, mostly. The argument that the Muslim world will like us better if he close Gitmo is bogus and false. There is no historical validation or evidence for such a silly liberal notion. Let's face facts: If we're not a Muslim nation, we're considered infidels (kaffir) and therefore they won't like us. Until we all convert to Islam (not in my lifetime) they will not like us- they will continue to hate us. We need to leave behind this silly liberal notion of "let's all get along and sing cum bye yah" blather. The reality is that peaceful co-existance is not something that holds one iota of space in the Muslim brain- not one millimeter of space. To them, it is inconceivable. The Israeli- Palestinian failure to peacefully co-exist over the last 60 years is proof.  Palestinians will not co exist with Israel, no matter what Israel does. Israel finally gave us and built a wall to keep them out and keep the Palestinians from further killings of innocent  Israeli men, women and children. In Europe in the 1970's when so many Muslims immigrated to Europe, the idea was that they(Muslims) would also integrate to become good Europeans- boy, that's worked out well, hasn't it? The concept of peaceful co-existance is unheard of in the Middle East.(outside of Israel) Even internally they cannot co-exist. Notice how long Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting and killing each other. 

Let's face facts: something in the Muslim mind and psychological make up seems drawn to the need to hate somebody.  Guess what? We're it.  We need to face the fact that Islamic terrorism will be an enemy of the West for a long time.

Obama's got everything he needs for incarceration at Gitmo, and he knows it. His leftist leanings and campaign promises have now run into the wall of reality and he has no answers beyond "close Gitmo".  Gitmo has been used  effectively by the Bush administration and no matter how much the left screams, the fact remains, we have been safe for almost 8 years because ot it. These killers have been treated very fairly at Gitmo. Gitmo has kept these haters off all things American out of our lax and porous judicial system that would 1) tie up the system for years , 2) give them legal loopholes to skirt what most of them deserve, which is execution. 

I would let the military handle the detainees in their military court systems, free and clear of the other enemy of the US, the ACLU.

If we do have to bring them here, (as much as I detest  that idea) I am intrigued by your idea that they would be held in a supermax in the Upper Penensula (or N. Dakota or Montana) area, which can be very cold during much of the year. If the liberal judicial system in this country stops us from properly executing them(as they deserve), then at least we can "Fargo" them for the rest of their lives. I had not thought of the "balmy breezes" comfort of Cuba before, which is more akin to their climates at home.

It's funny. The United States

It's funny. The United States has more people incarcerated than any other country in the word. It is the one thing American's are better at than any other country. And yet, the idea of taking a few hundred prisoners and imprisoning them in the US is somehow the mist frightening thing in the world for some people.

Rather than try to come up with what GITMO means to Muslim World, ask yourself what does GITMO mean to you.

FlyingScot vs Chairman of the Joint Chiefs

FlyingScot:

The argument that the Muslim world will like us better if he close Gitmo is bogus and false. There is no historical validation or evidence for such a silly liberal notion.

Admiral Michael Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs:

"Well, the concern I’ve had about Guantanamo in these wars is it has been a symbol -- and one which has been a recruiting symbol for those extremists and jihadists who would fight us. ... That’s at the heart of the concern for Guantanamo’s continued existence,“ Mullen said on ABC’s "This Week.“

"Well, I’ve advocated for a long time now that it needs to be closed. President Obama made a decision very early after his inauguration to do that by next January. And we’re all working very hard to meet that deadline,“ Mullen added.

 

 

silly liberals vs. wise conservatives

FlyingScot:

....There is no historical validation or evidence for such a silly liberal notion.

That's right, conservatives know exatcly what works and what to believe from studying their glorious past that made them this powerful, like say christian fundamentalism, war and torture.

But what KIND of symbol is GITMO

I think Admiral Mullen fundamentally misunderstands the mindset of the people we're dealing with.  Chances are that GITMO is indeed a symbol, but not a symbol which drives them to terrorism.  It's more likely a symbol they respect and are somewhat intimidated by.  Some actual research into muslim perceptions of the US as it relates to GITMO might be a good idea.  Muslims tend to respect strength and if GITMO is a sign that the US can be cruel, then that's something they would appreciate in a way we might actually find positive.

 

Dave

This says more about what you

This says more about what you think of Muslims than what Muslims actually think. Do you know any Muslims? Have you been to any Muslim households? I'm guessing the answer to either question is "no."  I would also hazard a guess that you think such questions evidence a "soft on terror" philosophy.

Gitmo serves more to assuage American fears of weakness than it does to intimidate would be terrorists.

Does watching FOX News and listening to Limbaugh make one

Does watching FOX News and listening to Limbaugh make one more of an authority about the nature of the threats we face than the CJCS? I would say "no", but I guess Dave would say "yes".

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What is that old saying about assumptions making an...

This says more about what you think of Muslims than what Muslims actually think. Do you know any Muslims? Have you been to any Muslim households? I'm guessing the answer to either question is "no." 

Then you'd be very wrong.  I was born in Beirut (in a largely muslim country you've probably never heard of called Lebanon).  Since then I've probably been to and lived in more muslim countries than you've been in states of the US.  I have muslim friends and muslim relatives.  So, your guess would be wrong about me, but a very telling indication that you comment based on your assumptions without really thinking about the subjects you comment on.  Maybe you should try to become better informed.

I would also hazard a guess that you think such questions evidence a "soft on terror" philosophy.

No, I'd write it off to ignorance of Islam and of cultures outside of the West as a whole.  Probably a product of government schooling and a very provincial lifestyle with little exposure to anyone with different views, background or experiences.

Does watching FOX News and listening to Limbaugh make one more of an authority about the nature of the threats we face than the CJCS? I would say "no", but I guess Dave would say "yes".

Not being a FoxNews watcher or Limbaugh fan I wouldn't know the answer to this question.  I prefer to use my own experience and research to develope an informed opinion.  You might consider learning about a subject before commenting on it.

Dave

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OK, so what is this "experience" of yours that make you more of

I prefer to use my own experience and research to develope an informed opinion.

OK, so what is this "experience" of yours that make you more of a credible authority on this question than Admiral Mullen and General Petreaus?

There's more than one point of view in the world

Putting aside my personal experience with muslims, islam and the culture of the middle east which other people cannot avail themselves of, there's still the fact that while Mullin and Petraeus certainly have an informed point of view, it is not the only point of view.

Others with as much or more experience of the region have drawn different conclusions, including academics and military experts.  It is entirely possible to look at the same situation and draw different conclusions, and the argument that our weakness and relative incompetence have emboldened terrorists is the flipside of the argument that when we do show strength or ruthlessness that earns us some respect with people who value those things.

Dave

Backseat General

Sorry if I am not impressed by your backseat general skills and am going to go with the real authorities on these matters.

 

 

A response

First of all, regarding the good Admiral's response to president Obama: What else can he say? He's the president and the president's title includes "Commander in Chief". He has to affirm President Obama's decision. When have you last heard of a military man going against his president?

I will never forget watching on CSPAN years ago, when Bill Clinton made a speech in front of the Joint Chiefs and various Military Brass and the speech  was regarding gays in the military. Assembled in the room were possibly the top 100 military men and women of America. As Clinton was introduced, the military brass stood and waited until Clinton emerged from behind a side curtain, and they they began to politely applaud (they knew what was coming)  Clinton gave his speech -this was early on in his first term and what he said radically changed the rules regarding gays in the military. When he finished, the military stood again and applauded as Clinton walked off the stage and past the side curtain. (This is where it gets interesting) the second Clinton's body traversed past that curtain, the applause stopped on a dime-  complete deafening silence in the room. Not a sound was made as the military turned and curtly walked out in silence as if no one of importance had just addressed them. The silence after the president had left their visual presence was the military's way of telling the president what they thought of his idea."You're commander in chief and we're duty bound to follow you, but  you're past that curtain now and so rules say we can stop applauding for you. We don't like this and this is our way of showing you how we feel."

That's the impression. CSPAN doesn't comment one way or another and of course the press didn't pick up on the snub of the President.  I've seen other speeches but none like this. There is usually some discussion or talking or a trailing off of applause. Not here. Dead silence.

Regardint the issue of the Admiral affirming the president's position, of course he's going to affirm it. He has to. The military is duty bound to follow the commander in chief's decisions, right or wrong. The Admiral must go along with the president's decision on Gitmo.

In regard to statements about Gitmo, I stand by them. Yes Gitmo is a symbol to the muslim world. It's a symbol that if you are a friend to the United States, there are rewards (Jordan, Dubai,Kuwait etc) and if you're an enemy, there are consequences (Gitmo) . That's what Gitmo stands for. I'm sorry many of you all can't see that. Dave said it best when he said (above) that Gitmo doesn't make us lose respect, Gitmo "intimidates". He also said, "Muslims tend to respect strength". I believe this is true. Regarding he question, "do you actually know any muslims?",  Yes I know muslims. Iranians and Moroccans to be specific. They understand and respect peace through strength. 

A little civics lesson:pull out a dollar bill and take a look at the eagle, the symbol of America,  on the back of the dollar bill. The eagle holds an olive branch in his right talon (peace) and he holds arrows in his left talon(strength).  

What does this mean? It means that we extend peace to you( the olive branch) but don't cross us( the arrows). Gitmo is an arrow, and becuase of president Obama's decision, we're about to lose that arrow.

One less arrow in the talon of the eagle. Thank you, Mr. President.

FlyingScot vs Chairman of the Joint Chiefs II

First of all, regarding the good Admiral's response to president Obama: What else can he say? He's the president and the president's title includes "Commander in Chief". He has to affirm President Obama's decision. When have you last heard of a military man going against his president?

Bullshit. Read the man's words. He makes it very clear that his opposition to Gitmo and torture are his own opinions that he has held for some time, he is not just going along to get along.

Here is another link - from January:

The chief of the U.S. military said he favors closing the prison here as soon as possible because he believes negative publicity worldwide about treatment of terrorist suspects has been "pretty damaging" to the image of the United States.

"I'd like to see it shut down," Adm. Mike Mullen said Jan. 13 in an interview with three reporters who toured the detention center with him on his first visit since becoming chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff last October.

His visit came two days after the sixth anniversary of the prison's opening in January 2002. He stressed that a closure decision was not his to make and that he understands there are numerous complex legal questions the administration believes would have to be settled first, such as where to move prisoners.

The admiral also noted that some of Guantanamo Bay's prisoners are deemed high security threats. During a tour of Camp Six, which is a high-security facility holding about 100 prisoners, Mullen got a firsthand look at some of the cells; one prisoner glared at Mullen through his narrow cell window as U.S. officers explained to the Joint Chiefs chairman how they maintain almost-constant watch over each prisoner.

Mullen, whose previous visit was in December 2005 as head of the U.S. Navy, noted that President Bush and Defense Secretary Robert Gates also have spoken publicly in favor of closing the prison. But Mullen said he is unaware of any active discussion in the administration about how to do it.

"I'm not aware that there is any immediate consideration to closing Guantanamo Bay," Mullen said.

Asked why he thinks Guantanamo Bay, commonly dubbed Gitmo, should be closed, and the prisoners perhaps moved to U.S. soil, Mullen said, "More than anything else it's been the image - how Gitmo has become around the world, in terms of representing the United States."

You are now in the embarassing position of setting yourself up and an authority on national security matters (about which I suspect you know nothing except what you see on FOX and hear on Limbaugh) in opposition to the informed opinion of the nation's top military officer.

Enjoy.

Well said, FlyingScot

I like your arrow analogy.  The problem is that what GITMO symbolizes to our enemies is outweighed by what it symbolizes to those who the current administration wants to be our friends.

I don't think that those Obama wants to curry favor with are terribly good friends to our country and they have very little to offer us in exchange for our pandering.

But on the other hand, on the basis of human rights I still think something has to be done about the prisoners in GITMO.  If we believe in the principles this nation was founded on, it's hard to also believe that those rights shouldn't be extended to all men, and can we fault Obama for wanting to apply those principles to those held at GITMO?  I don't.  I just don't see how he can do it on a practical basis.

Dave

The U.S. Govenment Is The Biggest Terrorist Threat of All

The U.S. government is the biggest terrorist threat of all.  And the spins on this "problem," are truly too incredible to believe at this point.  The problem is, and which is not being stated, is that a great many of our federal prisons now have been privatized, and are now not at all technically "owned" by the U.S. government at all, in order to get those campaign contributions most of all.

There are many federal prisons available that could isolate those prisoners.  And they are no more qualifed to have fair trials on U.S. domestic soil as they are in Guantanamo, since Guantanamo is a U.S. territory in and of itself.  So this is all spin, and really good that most of the public is believing this garbage.

The original resolution that was passed by Congress only provided that Bush had the authority to enter into Afghanistan to seek "Osama bin Laden and any and all who gave him aid and comfort FOR THE ATTACKS OF 9/11."  It went no further.  The Iraq Resolution simply then gave him additional authority to enter Iraq seeking bin Laden, and also the connection that was spun that Saddam Hussein was giving him refuge.  That turned out to be false, so "legally" there is actually no authority for the U.S. to be holding these prisoners at all, if they were not directly involved.  And also, "terrorism" is a subjective term, and has been used by our very own government in order to quell the critism now of its own citizens.

If they were involved in the attacks on the Pentagon, then they are guilty of military crimes.  If they are guilty of being involved in the attacks on the Twin Towers as a "civilian" target, then they are guilty of civilian crimes under the Geneva Convention, I do believe.  And if there is not enough evidence to convict them of either, they should be shipped back to Iraq until either there is enough to convict them, or they are involved in attacking the U.S. soldiers or contractors that are now there STILL under false pretenses.

End of story.

You should read the documents you write about

Betsy, most of your comment doesn't deserve response.  But please go READ the AUMF before you start talking about it and sounding foolish.  It did not authorize going into Iraq to look for bin Laden.  It had 17 very specific arguments, most of them having nothing to do with terrorism or al Qaeda.

Dave