What This American Patriot Believes

I was challenged by a self-described moderate: "it's time to stop it [purging the party of RINOs] if you really, honestly think of yourself as a GOPer." It made me think: Why am I a Republican? The conservative movement have built and sustained the Republican party. Reagan built this party, and I am a Reagan Republican. I am a Republican because I believe certain things that align with my beliefs. I am an American Patriot first, a conservative second, and a Republican third.

I believe in freedom. I want a limited Government that plays the role expressed in our founding document - to protect our rights. I want that Government to recognize its limits under the Constitution. I further believe in individual responsibility and believe further that a society can be free only so long as it is moral, and can be moral only so long as it free.

I believe our Judges should enforce the law and interpret the law as written, understanding and using judicial restraint and original intent in their method of interpretation, rather than being activists who write law from the bench or rule based on political or personal passions.

Government exists to serve the people. I believe in democracy, but more importantly, I believe in a particular type of democracy where the best Government is that government which is closest to the people. The ideal Government is self-Government. I support Federalism and local control to the maximum exstent possible, as architected in our Constitution and expressed in the 9th and 10th Amendments. Conversely, the worst form of Government, least responsive to people and potentially most despotic, is global Government; I support American sovereignty against the encroachments of global-statism.

I believe in free enterprise, both because property rights are a conerstone of individual rights, but also because the capitalist free enterprise system is the best and most efficient engine for the creation of prosperity that is possible. History has proven that Socialism is a prescription for poverty. What government regulation is needed in our economy are those things that build up trust in the economy: Rules to lessen fraud, dishonesty, and abuses of monopoly power. Government regulations that fix prices, bailout failing industries, engage in "industrial policy" attempts to bet on industries are invariably failures. A recent example is the sure-to-fail attempts to push clean energy from the Government. We should oppose all such efforts as inevitable failures of central economic planning.

I support low tax rates because the price of Government should be as low as possible. Low tax rates are simpler, fairer and less economically burdensome. I believe the U.S. Federal budget ca

I want a smaller Government. I want tax rates cut, wasteful spending eliminated. We could cut hundreds of billions in Federal spending and it would be a huge blessing to this country. I oppose earmarks. I oppose socialized medicine, bailouts, phony prok barrl stimulus bills, socialist interventions into business,

I am pro-life, because our rights our meaningless without the right to life. I am pro-Traditional Marriage, because family is a building block of civilization. I oppose attempts by cultural marxists to undermine our culture and replace a culture of responsibility with one of moral relativism. We were wrong to take religious expressions out of the public square; it is a violation of right to worship to deny public expression of religious sentiment, wether Ten Commandments at a courthouse or a valedictorian thanking God.

I conclude, from long study of the matter, that CO2 is harmless and the fear of climate change is massively overhyped. We should use more nuclear energy, drill offshore and ANWR. And we shouldnt have these Green-doggles - ethanol, solar subsidies, hybrid subsidies, wind energy subsidies, renewables mandates. The environmentalists are wrong on all of the above, which hurt the economy without helping the environment.

I am pro-choice: Pro-gun choice, pro-retirement choice (create social security choice), pro-healthcare choice (against 'single payer'), pro-school choice. I support a woman's right to choose - to raise her child as she sees fit, including where to send that child to school. I don't support her right to kill any human. Nor do I support having nursing homes or relatives decide to kill patients without their clear consent; I oppose ethanasia and the 'slippery slope' that it leads to, of killing undesirable patients out of convenience not compassion.

I support school choice because the goal of education is to support learning for children, and choice brings the parental involvement, accountability that is vital to student success. I support charter schools and support giving children vouchers to attend the school of their choice; let the schools compete to be the best centers of learning possible, if would make education more effective and efficient.

I believe in equality of opportunity and for that reason oppose affirmative action quotas and reverse discrimination type favoritism and tokenism. Let us be a meritocracy, an aristocracy of virtue and excellence.

I believe in the rule of law. I support the death penalty and tough penalties for violent crimes because deterrence works. Because I support the rule of law, I oppose amnesty for illegal aliens, which will incite further law-breaking. I support legal and controlled immigration as an asset to our economy and nation, but think the 'chain-migration' should evolve into a system that encourages the best and brightest to come here.

I support American sovereignty against globalist Government, and I support our Government's attempt to maintain our national security and defend our freedoms from foreign enemies. That includes supporting the fight against Islamic extremist terrorists.

Finally, I believe strongly that America is the greatest nation on earth. This is not a blind faith, but one based on the experience of living in another country and visiting two dozen other countries in my lifetime. We are the best nation on earth because of the greatness of our people, and our people are great because of our traditions of Judeo-Christian faith and morality, liberty, and self-reliant individualism. Should we lose those cultural traditions, or turn away from God, our national greatness will fade away. That knowledge motivates me to support the continuation of our liberty and traditions in our nation.

I am glad the Republican Party is around to represent these beliefs because, since the 1960s, the Democrats have become a party that is so alien to American traditions that they are opposed almost 100% to everything I believe is good for the country. During my lifetime, the Democrats and leftwing activist allies, some of them quite radical, have assaulted our moral traditions, our prosperity, and our long-standing freedoms.

Nobody will agree with every point I make 100%, but I am sure much of what I believe in is supported by most people in this country who would call themselves Patriot. Why is that? Because it is simply a belief in the goodness and rightness in the best political and cultural traditions of this greatest nation on earth - the United States of America.

That's what this American Patriot Believes.

-Freedom's Truth

Also posted here:

http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-this-american-patriot-bel...

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Well done

Your post truly deserves an awesome rating.  Well done.

Ageed. Well said.

Now lets watch as the libs go nuts . . .about your "hidden beliefs, bigotry, and small mindedness".

 

Bill's got a crystal ball

Amazingly accurate prediction.

 So you believe in ideology.

 So you believe in ideology. I believe in management. You (like Bush) want tax cuts and you think that will solve all problems. Things happen and you have to adjust to it. For example, Bush said free trade is good while our middle class jobs went overseas. The middle class lost their jobs, healthcare, and pensions. Cities and states are going broke. Now, doesn't it make more sense if in this case we have free trade or globalization that we prepare our citizens for it? Like creating jobs that will stay in this country? Like energy independence. Like mandatory vocational training and a more educated workforce. We already know with globalization that all jobs are vulnerable. That we should not sit by and see our jobs fade away. Today it is blue collar jobs. In the future white collar jobs. Any widgets can be made in another country. So the bottom line is that you cannot sit back with some ideology and think things will be perfect. As of late, we have not seen capitalism, we have seen the destruction of the middle class.

Hudson Institute > Promoting U.S. Worker Competitiveness in a Globalized Economy

You want a limited government, but certainly that is not we have seen for the past 8 years. And by a limited government, we also need to stop any infiltration of religious ideals forced upon Americans. We should maintain a separation of church and state. We have seen a president run his idea of going to Iraq with some "higher authority." And in the name of religion, Hitler proclaimed that it was a religious right to attack other countries.

And if you believe in federalism then there should be no more discussion abortion and gay rights. Leave it up to the states. Oh, you contradict yourself when you say you are pro-life and you want certain kind of judges. Judges by your rules, and your activism.

The best industrial policy or the best economic policy we should have is one in which we invest in our country, in our people, and in the future.  The Republican party and what I have learned.

I also believe in a strong and secure country. But let us not get carried away with false ideologies and stretching our military thin. You stick with the mission and you complete it. And you have enough force to complete that action. 

We have seen central planning by the democrats, by the republicans, and Alan Greenspan on the housing market. And all they had to do was to invest in our country, our people, and in the future. 

I am also for all energy and for most all drilling. We need to be energy independent. We get caught in the ups and downs of oil. We have had 30 years of this. I hope we have a task force that will lead us in the right way instead of being an ostrich with the head in the sand. 

I want everyone to prosper, but we have seen tax cuts for the rich. Money going to Iraq and our jobs going overseas. The middle class has felt left out and they voted. Look at the numbers of jobs going overseas, the unemployed, the amount of people without healthcare insurance, the cities and states going broke as factories close, and the choice of jobs left after the factories close. 

You (republicans) have yet to prove yourselves. If tax cuts create prosperity, then after 8 years we should be the riches nation on earth. We lived by tax cuts, we ran up deficits and debt, we borrow the money for tax cuts and war. We didn't have to pay for anything. It was easy street for 8 years. After all, we had a president that said "America, has no problems." And look where we are now. Oh thats right Bush said we would have a balanced budget by 2012. 

And the last words by republicans is that we need to cut spending. Now dig deep in the budget and cut 100 billion dollars out of the budget. I am not saying it shouldn't be done, but tell me where you are going to find the money. And you can't cut in bad times. Just like you can't raise taxes in bad times. So it is most difficult. On the other side of the equation, if you create jobs, then you will create revenue for the cities, the states, and the federal government. 

While you talk of saying the is the greatest country in the world. We need to clean up our act. There are toxic wasted dumps and we have an infrastructure to take care of. Let us work together for all people and not for those that want their bonuses on Wall Street. But in this age of globalization, widgets can be made anywhere. So we are fighting a new war in which we have to find new sources of jobs as the old ones leave the country. And that means just not relying on tax cuts and ideology. It means managing the economy. CEO's do it, coaches do it, and the president has to do it. 

Government is best which Governs least

So you believe in ideology. I believe in management.

Do you believe in self-management or to have the Government manage your life? I believe in freedom and many thing besides, largely rooted in belief in liberty and limited Govt. Thus, I believe in self-management aka individual responsibility.

You (like Bush) want tax cuts and you think that will solve all problems.

I mentioned tax cuts in 2 out of 18 paragraphs. Thanks for not paying attention. Your blathering about bush and tax cuts misses the fact that we have had hundreds of years of economic history in dozens of countries around the world, to show that Govt intervention fails, high tax rates ruin prosperity, low tax rate aid it. Dont be so narrow-minded and look only at your (skewed and flawed) interpretation of last 8 years. Look at Ireland 1988-2008 for example, or Hong Kong, or Japan 1960-1985. The list goes on and on. Check out Freedom House rankings.

Things happen and you have to adjust to it. For example, Bush said free trade is good while our middle class jobs went overseas. The middle class lost their jobs, healthcare, and pensions.

Strawman much??? We've pursued free trade since WWII.

Cities and states are going broke.

That is a failure of fiscal discipline and fiscal responsibility. Maybe I need to add a point that I believe in fiscal responsibility, both by individuals and by Governments.

Now, doesn't it make more sense if in this case we have free trade or globalization that we prepare our citizens for it?

Sure, and that 'preparation' sure aint socialized healthcare, a cap-and-trade plan to drive industrial jobs overseas, higher taxes and more regulations on financial sector to kill off IPOs and corporate credit.

Like creating jobs that will stay in this country? Like energy independence. Like mandatory vocational training and a more educated workforce.

What's "Mandatory" vocational training? Will I go to JAIL if I dont go into your stupid Govt program?  Here was my vocational training: I was a paper-boy at aged 12. Since that time I've not been without a job. Ever.  If you go through America's history, you find millions more stories like that than stories of "I was helpless until Big Daddy Govt picked me up."

As for more educated workforce, thanks to affirmative action, this white male missed out on some Govt opptys, but I did manage to get a PhD nevertheless.  Do you think people are clueless and helpless if the Govt is not around to run their lives? That's the attitude that treats adults as children.

I prefer to treat children as children, adults as adults, criminals as criminals. I prefer to treat terrorists as terrorists and not victims of mean-horrible CIA as well...

And so it goes. You have a fictional strawman view of what the Republican party is etc. and throw many non-factual claims that have no relation to the article I wrote.

It means managing the economy. CEO's do it, coaches do it, and the president has to do it.

Bad CEOs micro-manage. Good CEOs let those most knowledgeable people make the call, putting the responsibility as close to the ground floor as possible. Read up on your Tom Peters for example. In Govt terms it means "That Government is best which Governs least."

Which is why the liberals and Obama will always fail. Bad ideology and bad management theory both.

Bottom line. Your approach is

Bottom line. Your approach is to do nothing and tell the American people "we have no problems."

Well, we saw that for 8 years and all the problems have piled up. At least we know where we stand. I have a better picture today of the republican party and how their ideology has failed.

As far as Ireland, which the republicans point to. We have seen Dell in the last year move operations to Poland. 

http://www.tgdaily.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=40906

So nothing is safe in this world especially with cheap labor.

Bottom line, you use strawman argumentation

Bottom line, you use strawman argumentation as a substitute for dialog.

I understand that arguing against things I never say is easier on your brain, but it makes for pointless debates.

What does "do nothing" mean or relate to in a free society? Are you really that dense that you think if there isnt a Federal program to do X that X never happens? Education never happens? People dont get healed from illness? Food doesnt get grown? The whole concept and question is mind-bogglingly out of place.

Go back to what I DID ACTUALLY SAY and speak to that.

Yes, there are tradeoffs between a free society and economy and a Government managed society and economy, but your statements have zero relevence to the actual issues and tradeoffs.

Everytime I hear or read "for 8 years"...

I tune out.  (I only tuned in this time to write that).

Bush didn't actually run for re-election in 2008, even though Barack Obama campaigned against him.

 Okay, let us go back to what

 Okay, let us go back to what you have said.

Do you believe in self-management or to have the Government manage your life? I believe in freedom and many thing besides, largely rooted in belief in liberty and limited Govt. Thus, I believe in self-management aka individual responsibility.

I don't want government to manage my life, however problems arise such as globalization. It has been around for some 30 years. We have seen the Japanese take most of our steel, our textiles, our electronics, and our cars. It starts with cheap labor, they take market share, and then we lose the jobs. The same is happening today. China, Mexico, and other countries will take the rest of what we have. Widgets can be made anywhere. That means our jobs go someplace else. 

Now, you can sit back and say government needs not to do anything and you can pay more for welfare. Or government can do something through education and coming up with new jobs and that means investment of all kinds, even if we have to subsidize some industries. Without jobs, you can have no country. Other countries do these things, they know what it means to compete with globalization. 

You also talk of limited government, but I assume you want more religion in our lives. So that cannot be limited government.

I believe the government has to do the right things to make us stronger and not be as dependent on other countries.  The republicans, especially the Bush administration has proven just the opposite.

I mentioned tax cuts in 2 out of 18 paragraphs. Thanks for not paying attention. Your blathering about bush and tax cuts misses the fact that we have had hundreds of years of economic history in dozens of countries around the world, to show that Govt intervention fails, high tax rates ruin prosperity, low tax rate aid it. Dont be so narrow-minded and look only at your (skewed and flawed) interpretation of last 8 years. Look at Ireland 1988-2008 for example, or Hong Kong, or Japan 1960-1985. The list goes on and on. Check out Freedom House rankings.

I don't  want high taxes either. It stops the private economy from doing what it is supposed to do. However, you have to pay for the things we have. We have seen the Bush economics of "guns and butter." Bush did not pay for anything. A false economy for 8 years. So you don't have to tell me anything on economics. We saw 8 years of bad economics. Now, can we pay for the war?

Strawman much??? We've pursued free trade since WWII.

We have never been confronted with as much cheap labor. The Chinese has 1 billion people and the Indians have 1 billion people. Free trade has ruined middle class jobs across the Midwest. Look at the electoral vote and see why the votes went to Obama.

That is a failure of fiscal discipline and fiscal responsibility. Maybe I need to add a point that I believe in fiscal responsibility, both by individuals and by Governments.

No. Many towns across the Midwest are seeing the factories close. It means less revenue for the cities and states as our federal government promotes free trade. There is a disconnect here. The people on Wall Street and in Washington say that free trade is good as factories close in communities. The cities and states cannot compete with billions of people with cheap labor. This is where those people on Wall Street and in Washington does not know what is going on on Main street.

Sure, and that 'preparation' sure aint socialized healthcare, a cap-and-trade plan to drive industrial jobs overseas, higher taxes and more regulations on financial sector to kill off IPOs and corporate credit.

I didn't say anything on socialized healthcare, but let's face it, we have a broken system. Corporations cannot compete when they have to pay healthcare and compete with countries with nationalized healthcare. I do not like cap-and-trade, higher taxes are already built in our future with the deficits and debt. You need regulation on the banking industry. A financial collapse is proof of that. No one is stopping IPO's. If anything is killing IP0's and corporate credit then it is a recession or near depression.

 

What's "Mandatory" vocational training? Will I go to JAIL if I dont go into your stupid Govt program?  Here was my vocational training: I was a paper-boy at aged 12. Since that time I've not been without a job. Ever.  If you go through America's history, you find millions more stories like that than stories of "I was helpless until Big Daddy Govt picked me up."

As for more educated workforce, thanks to affirmative action, this white male missed out on some Govt opptys, but I did manage to get a PhD nevertheless.  Do you think people are clueless and helpless if the Govt is not around to run their lives? That's the attitude that treats adults as children.

I prefer to treat children as children, adults as adults, criminals as criminals. I prefer to treat terrorists as terrorists and not victims of mean-horrible CIA as well...

And so it goes. You have a fictional strawman view of what the Republican party is etc. and throw many non-factual claims that have no relation to the article I wrote.

And if you don't do these things, then you pay for more welfare and we will not have an educated workforce and we will not compete in the world of globalization. Your idea is to have free trade, throw 50 and 60 year olds out of work and tell them "you are on your own." Now, isn't that dumb? You can take a sensible approach or you can create instability. And then you thing it is the cities and states that need to be fiscally responsible. I think you talk with a forked tongue.

 

Bad CEOs micro-manage. Good CEOs let those most knowledgeable people make the call, putting the responsibility as close to the ground floor as possible. Read up on your Tom Peters for example. In Govt terms it means "That Government is best which Governs least."

Which is why the liberals and Obama will always fail. Bad ideology and bad management theory both.

And we have just seen 8 years of social conservatism and bad ideology running the country. A president that could not run 3rd grade, pumped up by Karl Rove. What a joke. 

You still have to recognize problems and deal with problems when they arise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reagan didn't call them RINOs

The Democratic party has become so alien to American views that they thumped republicans through two straight elections.

The conceited nature of conservatives is that their ideology trumps all. A lot of you people think the republican party started with Reagan. That's the problem. The republican and democratic party have always been about different philosophies coming together under one banner. You ignore part of your history that saw conservatism on the fringes from the late 1940s through the late 1970s.

Your belief that your ideology is the only one that matters is rapidly sending your party back to the fringes. You also believe in your ideology so strongly that it blinds you to reality.

Those people you call RINOs aren't republicans in name only. They come from a different part of the country, and they vote according to the districts or states they represent. According to their beliefs.

Do you live in PA or ME? Since you believe in state's rights maybe you should stop expecting people like Snowe, Collins, and Specter to vote in a way that doesn't represent their state. The electorate in PA and Maine don't believe everything you believe in. Their senators vote according to the will of their electorate.

 Your beloved Reagan appealed to a lot Democrats. They voted for him for president, but voted for democrats in their local offices. You mistakenly believe you only have to appeal to people who think like you in order to win elections.

If you keep thinking that way, the shock is going to be tremendous.

 

 

Federalism - boon to diversity in the states

Do you live in PA or ME? Since you believe in state's rights maybe you should stop expecting people like Snowe, Collins, and Specter to vote in a way that doesn't represent their state. The electorate in PA and Maine don't believe everything you believe in. Their senators vote according to the will of their electorate.

This is precisely why we NEED Federalism.

If Maine does its own thing at the state level, its not sweat off my brow. If Maine sends a Senator to DC to IMPOSE THEIR IDEAS ON ME ... then it DOES impact me.

I shake my head when I hear about the nutty things the Ithica City Council does (aka "City of Evil"). And I go my merry way, happy in the thought I dont live there. But I shake my fist at the nanny-staters at the Federal level who destroy freedom, prosperity with nonsensical impositions.

We need less Federal power. We need to let different states go their own way. The successful states can be role models for the other states. For example, Texas is doing better than other states and can be a role model in some areas like tort reform and how to avoid state income tax.

 

 

oh yess, we'll do that here in PA

step 1: Find oil

step 2: remove contango.

Four states solvent in our union.  Betcha texas ain't one of them.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Yeah...you're not an American Patriot.  You're a traditionalist, pretend Christian, and a scoundrel.

Why are you here?

Why are you here?  Why do you spend valuable time and money coming here and throwing around the 'traitor' accusation?  Does it give you some cheap thrill to call strangers 'traitors'?

Thanks Turdblew

You get the "stupidest comment" award of the day award. And the day is just starting.

Freedoms Truth

Freedoms Truth is a parody of all that is wrong with social conservatism and the Republican Party.  He can be a valuable Republican in the deep south, but unfortunately his ideas are not palatable to the nation at large.  The poster is not an American Patriot anymore than the next person is.  Anybody who says they are a buffoon and a scoundrel.

By the way, turdblew.  That's awesome.  It has a certain third grade classyness to it.

And I stand by the traditionalist/pretend Christian juxtaposition by the way.

In your opinion

IN YOUR OPINION, Freedom Truth's views are wrong.  How does that make him any less of a patriot?  Why can't you simply disagree with him without trashing his patriotism?

Just so we're clear here too.

I am not trashing his patriotism.  I am mocking his self-righteousness.  Unless we're talking about foriegn invaders, planning succession, selling military secrets, etc., it isn't even on topic to bring up your "patriotism" or your opponents lack thereof.

apologies

Well, then, I apologize for misinterpreting your comment above:

Yeah...you're not an American Patriot.  You're a traditionalist, pretend Christian, and a scoundrel.

I thought that you were actually claiming Freedom's Truth is not a patriot.  My deepest apologies.

Mockery

I would've used the little trademark symbol next to American Patriot if I would've taken the time.

Ever seen Paths of Glory?

Me and Obama both oppose gay marriage

Obama and I both oppose gay marriage and supported Prop 8 in Cali. He must be a buffoon and a scoundrel then in your book for deviating from the party line. Not only that but in the last election he ran on tax cuts, tried to get prolifers to believe he would cut abortions and touted family values. Maybe he's a 'pretend Christian' as you call it.

Why cant you discuss someones view without the personal attacks?

"The poster is not an American Patriot anymore than the next person is. "

I fully acknolwedge that there are tens of millions, probably hundreds of millions of Americans like me and I am no more patriotic than they are. Your attack on the very word is troubling, as if you think we shouldnt be proud of such allegiance to our American heritage.

The question is why do you hate all of us with such a passion to name-call the mere declaration of beliefs?

And I stand by the traditionalist/pretend Christian juxtaposition by the way.

The question is why are you such a hater?

My support of basic traditional values is just a part of the overall picture, so its hardly accurate to call me a social conservative.

Just so we're clear (part 3)

I don't hate you.  I think you're a self-righteous clown with bad ideas.  See: Gingerich, Newt.  Literaly, because I'm staring at his picture right now as a type this for the side banner.

And you are the parody of all that is wrong with the far left

Stating that one loves his country and is a patriot is reason to be riduculed and belittled, a buffoon and a scoundrel.

Social conservatism? I must not have read the same post. Of course, I doubt that you did either. What elements of his/her post promote the so con agenda?

 

Just so we're clear

"I am pro-Traditional Marriage, because family is a building block of civilization. I oppose attempts by cultural marxists to undermine our culture and replace a culture of responsibility with one of moral relativism. We were wrong to take religious expressions out of the public square; it is a violation of right to worship to deny public expression of religious sentiment, w(h)ether Ten Commandments at a courthouse or a valedictorian thanking God."

 

yes, and...

Yes, and...?  You disagree, obviously.  How does that make Freedoms Truth any less of a patriot?

Obama is pro traditional

Obama is pro traditional marriage. Is he a so con now?

He wasn't calling for prayer in school. What happened to freedom of expression? Does that not include religion?

Couple of points

All right.  I'm laying all snark aside for this post.

1.  Tone.  Self-righteousness.  Nobody (well at least not a majority) likes listening to Jesse Jackson and all his pompousness, either.

2.  Policy implications.  How exactly is what Freedoms Truth policy perscriptions different than what the Republican Party has been doing?  They are exactly what Republicans have been doing and he thanked them for it.  The problem of course is that the Republicans have lost badly the past two election cycles.  They might pick up a smattering of House seats, but will probably lose more Senate seats in 2010.  Somethings got to give.

3.  About the marriage thing.  Does anyone here really believe Obama wouldn't legalize same-sex marriage on the federal scale if it was politically popular?  Exactly.  Liberals are winning the fight on marriage equality.  Conservatives seem to be winning the fight over gun control.  Ironically (not) both of them give more freedom to individuals.

4.  Your statement about freedom of expression.  Unless I am totally wrong, any school that attempts to limit a valedictians commencement speech for religious conduct is usually found in the wrong, except where the student used it as a forum to preach or have alter calls or something.  A school district becoming risk averse and stifling expression will get sued just as easily as one who openly preaches to their students.

So Obama is a liar?

Does anyone here really believe Obama wouldn't legalize same-sex marriage on the federal scale if it was politically popular? 

He said he was against gay marriage in the last election. You are saying he lied for electability reasons?

one doesn't need to lie to say that one doesn't

support something because it isnt' the will of the people. One can have ethically consistent views, and take the philosophy that one is there to perhaps push the American people towards what they think is right, but not to be so blasted hidebound that you Always Do what you think is right.

For that? Kucinich and Ron Paul.

Obama never gave that caveat, he just opposed gay marriage

Obama lied since he never gave that caveat:

support something because it isnt' the will of the people."

So you are saying my view in opposing gay marriage is in alignment with the 'will of the people'.

One wonders how pro-traditional marraige can be both a fringe view (according to the libs) and simultaneously be in the majority... must be an elitist beltway/bicoastal thing, like the woman who wondered how Nixon got re-elected in 1972 because she didnt know anyone who supported him.

 

 

she probably did know someone, fwiw ;-)

I'm not saying that Gay Marriage is the will of the people.. not yet. Most people support some sort of civil union -- with the same guarantees as "marriage", presumably. [it's rather hard to argue that someone who loves another shouldn't be allowed in to see their lover in the hospital].

What many people are arguing is that the younger generation tilts very strongly towards gay marriage. It's simply a fairness sort of thing... and when you grew up without stigmatizing (or, god forbid, killing someone for propositioning you!) gay people, it becomes a lot more poignant to ask "why call it something different?"

So, sooner or later, and the thinking is sooner (as in 2012 at the latest), gay marriage will be majority opinion.

 

And I know he didn't give that caveat. I also know which church he went to. Rev. Wright was quite outspoken about many things, including women in the clergy and acceptance of homosexuals into the church. (he was also... Remarkably Outspoken about some things he never should have mentioned on national TV. The man has Pride Issues).

Be direct.

it's rather hard to argue that someone who loves another shouldn't be allowed in to see their lover in the hospital.

Why not just push for laws repealing limits on visitors in the hospital?

Tim, err... that's not the full scope of the issue.

The power to make decisions over someone's life and death normally goes to the spouse, and if not the spouse, the closest living family member. Not allowing Gay Marriage is a way to exclude some lovers from medical decision-making.

I wish it was so simple as repealing laws about visiting hospital patients!

Take it a step further -- say someone's been the "stay at home mom", they have a reasonable right to inherit their husband's pension. Gay lovers do not get that right...

points in response

All right.  I'm laying all snark aside for this post.

Welcome back!  We've missed you in the Land of Rational Discourse.  Hope you enjoyed your vacation to Jon Stewart Island, but, alas, all vacations must come to an end.

2.  Policy implications.  How exactly is what Freedoms Truth policy perscriptions different than what the Republican Party has been doing?  They are exactly what Republicans have been doing and he thanked them for it.  The problem of course is that the Republicans have lost badly the past two election cycles.  They might pick up a smattering of House seats, but will probably lose more Senate seats in 2010.  Somethings got to give.

Well, this is a rather naive analysis.  Because Republicans lost the last election doesn't mean that every single Republican policy proposal has been rejected by the voters.  Besides, I for one am not interested in winning solely for the sake of winning.  I would not be happy if we get an Obama clone elected who just happens to have an (R) behind his name.  So even if Freedom's Truth's views are popular or not, even if they are a net vote getter or vote loser, they are still worthy of discussion.

3.  About the marriage thing.  Does anyone here really believe Obama wouldn't legalize same-sex marriage on the federal scale if it was politically popular?  Exactly.  Liberals are winning the fight on marriage equality.  Conservatives seem to be winning the fight over gun control.  Ironically (not) both of them give more freedom to individuals.

To be honest, I really don't know.  I didn't think he would try to micro-manage banks and auto makers either.  Besides, even if Obama would or wouldn't do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that position is correct.

Yes, and I'm glad conservatives are making gains on 2nd amendment rights.

4.  Your statement about freedom of expression.  Unless I am totally wrong, any school that attempts to limit a valedictians commencement speech for religious conduct is usually found in the wrong, except where the student used it as a forum to preach or have alter calls or something.  A school district becoming risk averse and stifling expression will get sued just as easily as one who openly preaches to their students.

No, that's not totally right.  School administrators censor valedictorian speeches to remove explicit references to God.  See, for instance:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=519090

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jun-17-Sat-2006/news/8014416.html

But you have to ask yourself, WHY have schools become so risk-averse?  It is because of this strange idea, promoted by the ACLU types, that even mentioning the word God in public near the ears of an unbeliever is somehow a violation of someone's rights.  And yes I can understand why those participating in a commencent ceremony don't want to listen to a sermon.  But (a) does it violate anyone's rights, a much higher standard? And (b) why should the burden be on the speech-giver to have the speech censored, rather than on the listeners to complain?

man, self-censorship sucks!

but, with all due respect, the listeners are often not in a place to complain. If you're there, on the night of your graduation, you may not want to ruin it for everyone else.

That said, I think you're absolutely right. Either send a questionairre around, asking what religions (or lack thereof) people have, and what they would object to, or provide the speech ahead of time. That way, if anyone's going to feel uncomfortable, they can just write an anonymous note, and everything can get fixed, before someone feels the need to stomp out of the graduation ceremony.

Also, I think it shouldn't just be "Do you object to us using the Word g-d here?" There should also be questions about acceptable inclusiveness (Jews mostly wouldn't mind if you mentioned G-d, but would probably mind about Jesus Christ) -- you obviously can't rattle off all names of G-d, but would it really upset people if you used a couple?

Lying Politicians and predictions of flip-flops

I didn't think he would try to micro-manage banks and auto makers either.  Besides, even if Obama would or wouldn't do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that position is correct.

Excellent point. I recall a bunch of conservative pundits, like Bill Kristol and others predicting Obama would 'move to the center' on economics etc. Turned out to be a bunch of hoooey. They were wishful thinking.... as for the libs, they too are getting surprised.

The fact is the liberals are basically saying that Obama lied and/or pandered blatantly on the gay marriage issue to help get elected. That may well be true although I never put Obama down as a Bill Clinton/John Edwards level lying panderer.

It reminds me of two things.

1. the old joke "How can you tell if a politician is lying? His lips are moving" and ...

2. That these libs must be wrong about gay marriage opposition being such a gosh-darned election loser. I mean if it is such an awful bad position to take ... then why did the all-perfect Obamessiah take it? Maybe opposing gay marriage is not the electoral death-wish the liberals make it out to be. Opposing gay marriage ran more than a dozen points ahead of John McCain in Cali.

 

chemjeff, you didn't respond

chemjeff, you didn't respond to thirdeblue's first point and I think it's a very, very important one in terms of elections:

1.  Tone.  Self-righteousness.  Nobody (well at least not a majority) likes listening to Jesse Jackson and all his pompousness, either.

I don't think you or FreedomsTruth or even any hardcore Bush apologist is not a patriot.  I also don't think thirdeblue, skayne, or the poster formerly known as RisingTide (sorry, RT, right now I don't recall your current moniker?), i.e., liberals or RINOs as a whole are not patriots.  I work from the assumptions that we're all patriots who want the best for our country, but we have different approaches for achieving that.

The point that thirdeblue made is that the messaging that those who disagree with one are not patriots is a real turn-off.  The implication that a person who disagrees with you is not a patriot, or not a "real American" or "the enemy" immediately shuts down receptivity to the merits of the speaker's position on a given topic, because no one likes to be accused of being a traitor simply for leaning toward a different solution to a given problem.  It's hard to win a convert when your potential target is distracted with annoyance that you begin from the assumption that s/he is motivated by less-than-patriotic or outright evil purposes.  It's just human nature to recoil from a suggestion that one is a 'bad' person or has unsavory motives.

Why do you think Bush named an act that basically trampled on some pretty important civil liberties and constitutional protections the "Patriot Act"?  It was so that anyone who opposed it could by definition be painted as 'not a patriot' and that was extremely frustrating and disturbing for people who reasonably questioned some of its provisions.  Don't support the Patriot Act?  Well, that can only be because you're not a patriot!  The titling was designed for simpleton sound bites and foreclosing the ability of those who disagreed with any part of the Act from making their arguments without by definition labeling themselves as unpatriotic.

A person can have the greatest principles in the world but if they're expressed in a way that discourages more than 50% of the country from listening, one best be prepared to have little opportunity to enact the principles. 

I'd be interested in your thoughts on thirdeblue's first point.

That patriotism thing

First, I simply said what I believe

I am not trying to sell anyone else on it, so commenting on the 'tone' wrt to the 'self-righteous' part is sort of irrelevent. This came out of a challenge from a moderate, and I had to ask, why am I a Republican. I'm not going to be ashamed of what I believe in. Please point to any particular statement that gives that impression of 'self-righteousness' that goes too far.

The use of the term patriot ... I had specific and good reasons to use that term. It came out of a realization that PATRIOTS in the American Revolution were actually PARTISANS to a particular cause, the cause of maintaining a particular relationship between people and Government, in one word that relationship is - freedom. IN two words democracy and freedom. I am really speaking of allegiance to America, but "America" has to have some meaning and I see that meaning as the America that has had 200+ years as a land of freedom and democratic rule.

The implication that a person who disagrees with you is not a patriot, or not a "real American" or "the enemy"

I did not intend that, so please point out what statements gave you that (wrong/unintended) impression. I did say clearly that I dont expect anyone to agree with what I believe in 100% but there are a vast body of Americans who believe in the common core or thread of beliefs.

 

He made my point for me.

Thank you.  I'll try to be more civil in the future.

thank you so much for explaining this!

I tend to think that being an "American patriot" is... almost self-evident. To the point where it makes me ask "why is person saying this?"

but taking it as a partisan thing, as a specifically anti-Tory thing, as favoring democracy over aristocracy. Yeah, I dig that. And I dig why that's where you start.

Because, ya know, I start from the same perspective.

I think you captured it well

Somehow, stating your core beliefs makes others feel attacked or belittled. But that is where they are reading in or projecting or assuming something that just isn't there.

This has been a good thread. I think the biggest takeaway for me is that some really take offense to being an unapologetic American. There is nothing in your post that should make anyone feel that you are belittling them or their beliefs. Many are simply offended that you (and I) hold these beliefs.

Not quite.

People take offense because you're using your patriotism as a cover for possible dubious policy proposals.  Again I ask, has anybody has the movie Paths of Glory where Kirk Douglas uses the quote that I reference to start this whole thing.  "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

I said in a previous post but I'll say it again, unless where dealing with foriegn invaders, acts of treason, selling military secrets, etc. your patriotism is simply immaterial to the discussion.

Yeah...you're not an American

Yeah...you're not an American Patriot.  You're a traditionalist, pretend Christian, and a scoundrel    . . .Thirdeblue

Got it. Are we supposed to take you seriously?

You come off as an angry looser, with little to add to the conversation other than pathetic name calling and paranoia.

I probably deserve that.

Fair enough.

Serious question

Does the left think of the term "patriot" in a negative way? Does it make the person using it in reference to themselves seem arrogant?

It really set some people off here, so I am asking.

hmm... this is a little tough to answer.

Surely some people, on both right and left, play the Holier-Than-Thou Patriotism card (just like I've seen some born again christians play the Holier-Than-Thou Christian card). And nobody likes that.

I think people in NYC aren't likely to discuss patriotism as much as people from Appalachia. In NYC, it's more an unspoken assumption -- in Appalachia, with their warrior culture, It's something to be proud of, to be cherished. And that's very much tied to people fighting for their country.

To a NYer, the question when someone brings up patriotism is "why is he bringing this up??" It's seen as such a fundamental belief, that it doesn't need to be spoken about. So bringing it up somewhat automatically says that you're trying to say that someone else Isn't a patriot, or isn't as much of a patriot.

Now, it's easy to get around fundamental assumptions like this. Saying something like "I'm a patriot, as I hope we all are", is a way to include your audience -- make the statement less divisive.

I don't know, I may have this all wrong -- but it feels to me like someone in Appalachia saying "I'm a patriot" means "and I'll fight for it too." It's more a signal of allegiance and companionship.

Maybe this is just liberals developing a bunker mentality from too much assault by Certain Elements of Conservatism, saying that they're cowards and want america to fail, and things like that? [e.g. Freedoms truth got a worse reception because he's a flamer, than lagomorph would saying the same thing]

Seems about as plausible as what I first wrote, at any rate.

Thanks for the reply

Makes sense. Having lived in various parts of the south all my life I've never really thought about it. I was suprised by the reaction it drew.

What maleficent said is true in my experience

She mentions NYC but I'm from California and currently living in Phoenix.  As I said above, I just assume that all but the truly treasonous are patriotic -- we just differ in how we think we can keep America strong and free.  Like she said about NYC, in my experience you just don't hear people out here calling themselves 'a patriot' -- it doesn't have a negative connotation for me, but a "how is that relevant?" aspect, because we're all patriots.  I couldn't really think of another reason to point out that you're a patriot except to imply that someone else isn't.

I've learned something today.  I didn't know that it's common in other parts of the country to actually say out loud that you're a patriot.  Good to know if I'm ever in the South -- it's enough of a surprise to see it in print, let alone spoken aloud about oneself!

I have to admit that I'm sensitive to the Palin/Bachmann "real America" schtick.  It probably comes from a strong identification of myself as a Californian (even after many years in Phoenix, which I hope to leave soon!!) and a clear understanding that they don't consider my type (blue stater) to be a 'real' American.  I'm as real an American as they are.  What, I'm a 'fake' American for no other reason than where I live?

I don't see it in a negative way.

But I do tend to view people who use it as arrogant.  I don't think Freedoms Choice was trying to get into a "Who loves America more?" debate, but by his own admission he was bemoaning the lack of "un-apologetic Americans".  I don't know what that means.  Does that mean we don't apologize for being Americans or because we're Americans we don't apologize?  I was born in Columbus, Ohio....does that make me an "unapologetic Ohioan"?  I don't know.

No 'bemoaning' here

but by his own admission he was bemoaning the lack of "un-apologetic Americans".

 I didnt do that. Reread some of the comments from others. They get it, you dont.

I told you where *I* stand and what it was based on.  I made no intended implications or gave no labels about where others stand in my article. You are simply reading that into it.

... you are free to be proud to be a Buckeye.