What to do about the "Cap & Tr8-ors"?

Yesterday was a slow day at the office, so I spent a lot of time on the I-phone seeing if we could actually give the lefties a shiner by defeating their "cap and trade" fiasco.

Then I got home, saw the result, and traded e-mails with various people in the "movement" The kindest response to the eight turncoats that enabled Waxman-Markey to pass was roughly along these lines


I don't think one can minimize why this was a truly hideous vote for those eight folks. Here we had a chance to derail the Obama socialism train and restore the Republican party to policy relevance, and these guys bailed out so they could get a nice mention in the NY Times tomorrow. Swell.  Even the White House is giving up on the "global warming" issue and you guys sign up for the mission.  Putzes,

The immediate response that I had was that the kindest thing to do to these "fredos" was to throw them out on an ice floe with the polar bears. And others were along those lines. Or at least, shut off their campaign money, demand retirements, or find primary challengers  But that's my spleen talking. Today my brain took over.

No. it's time for a more "reasonable" approach.

See we now have an even more serious threat to the future of the Republic, and that would be a socialized health care system. I'll let John Hinderaker explain.

One of my law partners asked me yesterday which of the Democrats' current initiatives is worse, the tax on carbon or the health care "public option," otherwise known as socialized medicine. I replied unhesitatingly that socialized medicine is much worse. Carbon tax-and-trade can rather easily be repealed once people realize what a dumb idea it is. However, once our health care system has been destroyed and replaced with "single payer" socialized medicine, there is no going back

We need to explain to the Octofail Republicans that there is only one way out of the flaming pit they have dug for themselves. They need to become hard line zealots against the "public option" health care "reform".

And not milquetoast statements and a quiet vote "nay" on final passage. I mean going medieval on the whole concept 24/7/365. I mean like righteous 100 decible opposition. I mean like Rudy Giuliani vs. squeegee men or Michael Moore v. the Hometown Buffett bad.

Anything less, and we re-send the pink slips with no remorse and no reconsideration.

Now for our political geniuses.  First off, let's dispense with the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" canard here. This was a statist bill from the word go and there wasn't a libertarian idea within the same zip code. It was simply an energy tax.  Ok if you want to keep the government out of my bedroom. How about letting people afford to heat their bedrooms? 

Second, this bill is going to appeal to the vocal but few Saab Socialists who put the environment ahead of the economy. It is going to be painfully unpopular with blue collar America. Maybe Dave Reichert's uber green district will like it; but if Mark Kirk or Mike Castle think this isn't going to backfire on them big time in Rockford and New Castle they are going to find the Democrats whacking them with their own bill next November.

And please explain Mary Bono Mack.  Both her and the lame hubby from SW FL are painful underachievers, proving surnames don't equal leadership. (Something we know well in CT!)

So that's the offer.  Back before he went girlie man in Sacramento Arnold Scharzenegger told John Connor this

Come with me if you want to live

Well, "Cap and Tr8-ors".....either make sure Obama's health care reform fails...or

Hasta la vista, baby!

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What exactly is going on

What exactly is going on here? I came to this site from 538 to hopefully find the 'other side' of the issues, but this is clearly not it.How is this post anything other than the sputtering, unsupported rhetoric meant for cretins? The demagoguery is insulting to anyone who actually cares about the facts, or has an education. Perhaps this is nothing more than a talking points memo for the mindless talking heads of Fox News?It's clear that the intellectual bankruptcy of the conservative movement continues, at least in this post.

This post isn't that bad

It's a base-rallying post, and it's not that bad if you compare it to some of the others here and especially those from RedState. However, like many others, it fails to present any sort of method to get from Point A to Point B. I already posted a technique that can be used to stop C&T, UHC or whatever. In fact, even the Kossacks could take my technique and use it to block conservative proposals; after two years of trying, clearly the r/w isn't capable of doing something so effective.

Major problem with their site?

I posted this to their twitter feed, without result. So I'll put it here to be ignored.

Assuming capandtr8tors.com is their site, why is it pulling in a Javascript file from China? Just in case that's a hack, turn off Javascript/Flash before visiting, and then look in the source code for an encoded string from something like ckn1.cn

If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention.

You know, if you dont like posters taking umbrage at politicians who betray basic principles of good governance, then just go away. Your demagoguery is insulting to anyone who actually cares about the facts, or has an education.

If you care about the facts, you would know all this:

On Friday, the House voted 219 voter for destroying the American economy on the phony altar of anti-CO2 extremism.


The Democrats and Pelosi Congress passed a bill that: attempts to solve a crisis that really isn't a crisis (global warming is not a crisis); fails to achieve what it claims to achieve, but is in fact a con that will not reduce emissions to targets; will add enormously to energy costs and in the process ship industrial production and industrial jobs overseas to competitors like China. And will leave American energy consumers poorer.

It got a last-minute midnight 300page amendment - payoffs to corruptly buy votes and pork up an already bad bill:


Cap & Trade is as bad for our economy as Smoot-Hawley ... but even worse, The bill is a con

The ACES bill allows polluters to purchase up to 2bn tonnes a year in carbon “offsets”, over and above the total allowance provided by the permits of the Cap & Trade scheme. This 2bn-tonne annual offset allowance exceeds all the CO2E emission reductions envisaged between now and 2040! ...

The political economy of the birth of this demented carbon credit/offset scheme was the perception in the rich industrial countries that the developing countries had to ‘get something’ out of the war on global warming. Perhaps they should. Carbon credits/offsets, however, are not the way to do it. An elaborate con, employing mainly consultants and specialised businesses from the advanced industrial countries, is not a solid foundation for economic development.

... The American Clean Energy and Security (ACES) Act of 2009 is worse than nothing: it is a con and a fraud. It pretends to be a vehicle for reductions in CO2E emissions. In fact it is designed to permit increases in CO2E emissions.

Every one of the 8 Republicans and every one of the 211 Democrats who voted for this horrible dreck deserves to be fired. Even Nov 2010 is too long. They have betrayed the American taxpayer, the American consumer, the American worker. And the way pelosi and crew violated ethics norms and manhandled the process makes it even more a pile of slime.

If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention.


More of the same

There are legitimate problems with cap & trade but this posting reads like it's been cross-posted from Red State.

Traitors, socialism, blah, blah, blah. When the "thoughtful" guys are talking like this, then we're in for an even longer period of irrelevance than previously expected.


Cap and trade

"There are legitimate problems with cap & trade"Yeah, like there are legitimate problems with having Cholera. Crap-n-Trade-our-jobs-to-China is the Hawley-Smoot of our age. So destructive to our economy, yet the impact on the environment will be ... nil. First because CO2 is not as impactful to global temps as Al Gore pretends, but secondly because Crap-n-Trade-n-Tax-n-Regulate will have only a tiny impact on global CO2 emissions overall - we will simply EXPORT our emissions to China. They get rich, we get poor. How does this help anyone?!?!

but this posting reads like it's been cross-posted from Red State."Ironman - take it as a COMPLIMENT! If NextRight ever gets to be like Redstate, it will be a nice improvement.

I mean, God forbid we fall down into the gutter of actually having posts that debunk one of Al Gore's lamest "Inconvenient Truth" lies....


"Traitors, socialism, blah, blah, blah. When the "thoughtful" guys are talking like this, then we're in for an even longer period of irrelevance than previously expected."

Majority of American oppose Obama's socialist takeover of GM. Majority of Americans oppose Obama's higher taxes on the middle class.  When you share actual details on ObamaCare, support dips under 50%. When you describe what actually is in crap-n-trade, 2-to-1 opposed.

When the 'thoughtful' guys are sounding outraged and thinking William Wallace, then consider the possibility that the guy you are following is pushing a dangerous wrongheaded big-Govt NannyStatist agenda that is bad for America.  Put down the kool-aid and open your eyes.


If you thought this site was NPR

I'm afraid you were sadly mistaken. I'm a shot and a beer mick lawyer from the CT burbs; not some wannabe scholar who blathers on about Ludwig von Mises or Russell Kirk.

Anyway, Cionfrocca @ the New Ledger ripped up Cap & Trade better than I could hope for.  No need to reprise his work.

I'm not blaming you, but

there are no free market ideas for the medical system that people are for.  Why else would Republicans have passed Medicare Part D?  (Notice that they aren't jumping up to take credit, but neither can they attack its premises credibly).

Also, Republicans never put the environment before the economy because they are always about the money.  I'm not saying cap and trade is the way to go, but they got nothing.  And you rarely beat something with nothing, HillaryCare excepted.  


there are no corporate Democrats running around out there. Right now plundering the government is going to be the way to riches, since they hold all the cash.

BTW, I hope that post was detailed and thoughful enough for you guys. Or should I just invite the Dodds over to high tea and politely ask how they prosper from public "service"? 

yeah. the government holds all the cash.

tell that to bill gates. he knows better.

Bill earned it before Obama took office


Beating something with, um?

XCon, you make a good point about this issue. I have always believed that government tends to screw things up and thus the private sector offers much more promise on a variety of issues. It frightens me to see Congress pass this bill because I know the tax hikes are coming and, more than that, government is overreaching, something it does far often.

I do take exception with the comment about Republicans only caring about money, but that's another topic! One thing I will say, though, is that the GOP usually sides with people in keeping their own hard-earned dollars in opposition to big brother taking it by force (and yeah, I happen to think most taxes fall into that category), whereas the Dems are quite comfortable with taking someone else's money in the so-called public good. Sigh.

Anway, there should be free market ideas on the health care debate. I think you're not hearing of any right now because what's the point? Obama and his Democratic underlings are bullying their way through.

plenty of free market ideas

including a public option. options are part of a free market. and if you truly have voodoo faith in free markets and privately owned industry... well, why would a public option hurt? ;-)

I don't have any [many] illusions

Democrats are scum.  How best to plunder?  Disguise yourself as the champion of working families.  Oh, that's right.  Both parties now do that, only Republicans drop the "g".   Taxes and fees for non-income tax-paying people have generally gone up.   Lots of room for technical argument here, but don't surprised if most Republican rhetoric about this is BS.

Believe me, keeping taxes from going up, in the abstract, is the issue I agree with Republicans on when all else fails.   I really just don't believe the are honestly for that. 

I came to this site because about half of what I read is linked to RCP which has been a daily visit since 2000 (that is, before I was much of a Bush supporter, but I never even considered voting Democratic - I was actually an activist Republican at the state level at the time).  Bush and Bush/DeLay Republicanism wore me out.  I am a small business owner and I believe most of what happened during the Bush/DeLay era screwed me in all sorts of nuanced ways (remember how they "didn't do nuance").

I'm just saying, I am for real and, at this point, hate Republicans, except for a handful of elected folks I know personally.  Maybe I'm off the wall.  Maybe I'm not.  It's about more than throwing me a bone now, though, in any case.

By the way

I'm a shot and beer Bohunk lawyer form the midwest (the black sheep from a corporate family back east), who owns a law-related business which has given me a front row seat to governmental, and consequentrly private, malfeasance in the current financial mess.

Question for Ironman:  as a lawyer, what do think about Republicans' ceaseless attempts to antagonize the bar, and really, by extension deny access to justice for all sorts aggrieved parties?  I realize it's the lawyers, and not the plaintiffs, that they're trying to beat.  

It's not that I feel targeted so much as I think Republicans talk out their a** on this.


Given the use of litigation to enact the leftist agenda...

it's not surprising the plaintiff's bar is held in poor esteem by many Republicans.  Plus, the image is that lot of them are John Edwards wannabbes, trying to nail enough deep pockets to retire early and rich.

I hold a gimlet eye to all my brethren in the bar.  None of us ought to be immune from criticism.

A True RNC Leader...

...would be openly, publicly and harshly critical of these 8.  Its time to ask scoundrels like this to leave the GOP.  At times like this we must demand loyalty, especially on issues so obviously destructive to our Nation. There is absolutely no room for any compromise on legislation such as this. 

Can you imagine the celebration among the GOP Base if Michael Steele requested that these 8 change their party affiliation?  Asked that they no longer call themselves Republicans? 

There are those who would say that we can't afford to lose numbers right now. Thats BS.  If a leader takes bold action, he/she will draw in much greater and more enthusiastic support than that  lost.  DD

Iron, don't worry about the trolls

they are getting upset at Obama's sliding poll numbers.


His average disapproval is now almost at 40% according to the pollster.com average.


Who'll be the first troll to attempt the Rasmussen is driving down Obama's numbers argument?  How would that explain Obama's average 52/44 approval/disapproval rating from PPP(D)?

ARG, Rasmussen, PPP(D) and MSNBC/WSJ

all effectively show that just as many, if not more, independents disapprove of Obama's performance than approve of his performance.  The trend for Obama among independents is encouraging and it's unlikely he can do anything to stop it.


The good news for Obama is that all he needs is to retain the 89% support from Democrats that every Democrat presidential candidate receives (John Kerry also won 89% support from dems).  Conservative Democrats are the key to whether Obama stays over 50% in terms of approval during his first term.



There's talking the talk, and then there's walking the walk

What the Republicans should be pushing hardest for right now is a law that forces Congress, the President, the Federal bench, Federal employees and their unions, the railroads, and even Indian tribes to participate in the same health care system forced on everyone else by eliminating the boutique health systems they've created for themselves. It's populist, and will ring in harmony with the Tea Parties. It will also push Americans' fairness button. And America gets to watch while the Democrats destroy their own credibility defending one of their most cherished perqs, (after to their pensions of course). The Republicans should call it the "Walking the Walk" bill. 


Those 8 Republicans acted like public servants

 I followed this link from a NYT article reporting Conservative outrage at the 8 Republicans who voted for Cap and Trade.  Two points:  

1)  If you accept that global warming is real and partly a function of CO2 emissions, Cap and Trade is a reasonable first response.  It provides a long-term mechanism for controlling CO2 in a way likely to be least obnoxious to the economy.  Other approaches to the same problem are much worse.

2)  Republicans and Democrats who voted for it took a political risk for a law that has no short-term benefits.  Pragmatic long-term planning is what I like to see in our lawmakers, and I am grateful for it.

A lot of Limbaugh Conservatives want to punish these 8 lawmakers.  To do so harms not only the Republican Party by shrinking it to its hard-right ideological core, but also harms the nation.  We need leaders from two robust parties, not ideologues who are too precious for the real world.

Cash to commodities speculators is a reasonable first response?

Even if a response to limit carbon emissions were a necessary action, you cannot be arguing in favor of this?

Cap and Trade is going to be an order of magnitude more lucrative for well connected special interests than the Iraq War ever was for Halliburton. 

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