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Shovels are so 1933

Submitted by Jason Sterlace on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 12:11
in

This is a crucial point.  With the fiscal stimulus legislation, Democrats want to create manufacturing and construction jobs - an attempt to recreate the New Deal.  But America is no longer a manufacturing economy.  America is an Information Economy.  Dragging us back to 1930's-era shovel projects is not economic progress.  It is nostalgia. - Jon Henke

A few days ago, Matt Dabrowski asked:

If Obama's stimulus plan doesn't give jobs to the white-collar, educated people who need them, can the stimulus possibly work?Let's leave aside for the moment whether or not the nation needs these projects (which I believe we do), or whether we support them (which I do as well). Will these infrastructure projects even work?

The answer is "No, they won't".

The Wall Street Journal says that "many Americans have been out of work for months and are resorting to lower-wage or part-time jobs to make ends meet." But infrastructure construction jobs are skill positions--the era of digging ditches with shovels is long gone. It's not a matter of handing out shovels to millions of laborers who have been locked out of their factories or whose farms have failed. That's not how things are built these days. And after decades of changing the shape of the American workforce, it is finally time to admit that the shape of the workforce has changed.

This is not 1933, and the old New Deal simply can't be enacted in today's America.

Anybody who wants to address ways to lower unemployment needs to consider this point made by the Economist: 

The New Deal was introduced into a world of giant organisations—of big businesses and big trade unions that were capable of striking deals with big government. But today’s economy is much more fluid. America’s most successful companies are entrepreneurial outfits like Apple and Google, which thrive on flexibility; even giant companies such as General Electric are breaking themselves up into entrepreneurial divisions. More Americans own their own companies (15%) than belong to trade unions (12%).

Please re-read that last sentence again before advocating any government-works plans to address today's unemployment.

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I own my own company.

Submitted by NextRightNando on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 12:34.

I own my own company - and I sell stuff to blue collar families. So if they have work, they will be more likely to buy my products. Trickle-up, if you will.

I sit at two red lights across from a big construction project every work day, twice a day. I don't see much going on that a person couldn't be trained to do in a day. Moreover, without action, as many as 30% of the country's construction jobs could be lost, according to one report. Those guys are already trained up.

contracdictory stimulus

Submitted by superdestroyer on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 12:59.

If the stimulus is aimed at uneducated blue collar workers, most of the work will go to illegal aliens.  That is why construction stimulus is so stupid.  Developers went into debt to fund construction that was built by illegal aliens.  Those illegal aliens either sent the money back to Mexico or spent it on cheap products build in China. 

Why should the federal government borrow money from China to keep those illegal aliens emloyed?

 

Learn from the mistakes of others

Submitted by Ironman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 13:00.

Japan tried this. Some authors suggest they went a bit overboard. I don;t think we want our own "lost decade"

What is that Amazon link supposed to demonstrate?

Submitted by NextRightNando on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 13:14.

I've got no idea what that Amazon link you provided is supposed to demonstrate vis a vis the question of whether or not infrastructure spending will pull us out of the recessionary spiral we are in. Please elaborate.

Meanwhile, here is a pretty elegent summary of the causes of the Lost Decade:

In this paper, I analyze the causes of the prolonged slowdown of the Japanese economy in the 1990s and find that the stagnation of investment, especially private fixed investment, was the primary culprit. I then investigate the causes of the stagnation of household consumption during the 1990s and find that the stagnation of household disposable income, the decline in household wealth, and increased uncertainty about the future are among the contributing factors. Finally, I consider whether demand side factors or supply side factors were more important as causes of the prolonged slowdown of the Japanese economy in the 1990s and conclude that the former (especially misguided government policies) were probably more important.

What were those misguided policies? Mostly, doing nothing about bank reform, and allowing thousands of zombie companies to stay afloat. And then, after the initial round of stimulus, trying to balance the budget by cutting spending and raising taxes before the economy was ready to absorb the pain.

 

That Japan tried paving over their country

Submitted by Ironman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 13:43.

and failed to produce a recovery . Perhaps that proved to be a "misguided government policy" 

Now it is generally accepted the Bushies jumped in earlier that the Japanese did in trying to correct the financial mess  , but....

Of course, the Democrats will make sure we have plenty of our own "zombie companies" for years to come.

NRN, there's never a good time for Democrats to cut spending. When times are tough, they say it would hurt the economy. When times are good, it's found money and they don;t want to pay down debt or give tax breaks to the wealthy.  See how all the newly elected Democrats did a bait and switch on TARP?      See "trust" and "as far as one can throw"

Infrastructure spending WITHOUT banking reform will fail.

Submitted by NextRightNando on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 14:25.

Infrastructure spending without banking reform will fail. On that we can agree.

As for the question of inherient irresponsibility: have a look at these tables on  the budget deficit/surplus by administration.

 

 

Before we can agree on "bank reform"

Submitted by lagomorph on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 14:37.

We'd better define what everyone means by that term.  Sweden had "bank reform" and the UK is "reforming" the Royal Bank of Scotland today.  Why is RBS in need of a bailout today?  Because they engaged in subprime mortgage lending in the U.S. with money from their investors and customers in the U.K.  Once again, we return to the subprime impact on the global economy - a condition imposed by Democratic "reforms" such as the CRA during Carter's administration that have ticked away like time bombs despite efforts of Republicans like Shelby to rein them in along with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  In the contexts of government bailouts and takeovers, "reform" means nationalization of the financial institutions which leaves shareholders with absolutely nothing to show for their previous investment.  I repeat, the shareholders in these "reformed" banks have lost EVERYTHING. 

Some of those shareholders are plain old "average folks" whose 401K portfolios included banking investments.  I'm saving my money - exactly the opposite of what the government is asking us to do at the moment - and I'm not "borrowing money" against my credit cards.  In our house, we've made a decision that we have a fine inventory of consumer products and won't be buying any more for at least 4-5 more years.  Strictly anecdotally of course, I'm guessing that as we go, so go the average folks across the nation.  This spells absolute disaster for the economy, even if 3 million jobs are created.  I'm deeply concerned that those jobs will be government jobs that will most likely be associated with benefits and retirement plans more similar to the auto workers than to ordinary construction jobs today.

Banks will  never release their capital to provide credit to consumers until they've wiped their toxic assets off the books.  Until that happens, they've got no choice but to retain as much capital as possible.  This is why Paulson's strategy has been a complete failure.  He should have spent more time determing the right formula to deconstruct the the derivatives into manageable components for evaluation of toxic, unrecoverable debt - his original mission for which we gave him carte blanche with absolutely no oversight.  The Senate has just given Obama exactly the same carte blanche with absolutely no oversight on the sheer weight of his "I'm going to be different" persuasion. 

Bill Clinton used to talk about "Free Markets with Rules".  Unfortunately, due to the disruption caused by violent and basically uninformed, uneducated, paranoid anarchists each time the WTO actually tried to convene and create such rules, here we are in the rule-less, ethic-less, morality-free market. 

In addition to finding a cure for the economy, we should also work on a cure for irony.  Each time the anarchists, nihilists, socialists, environmentalists and other good-hearted well-meaning activists of the world unite, they manage to create as much harm for the world's poor as the very overlords they are trying so diligently to overthrow - but that's a topic for another discussion altogether.

A final word about Japan's lost decade - by having a mixed economy of protectionism and corporate socialism in their domestic products, while espousing unfettered trade (by them, to us) in their exports, they managed to bring their system to its knees.  I'm so sure that Obama's team will all know how to create a mixed economy far, far better this time.  Yeah, right. 

I've heard a great deal lately from Republicans as to how eager they are for Obama to prevail - "we're all rooting for him".  Frankly, I'm not rooting for him, or for Geitner, or for Volcker.  I'd like to see Obama fail rapidly, but only on the condition that  Republicans recall how we used to stand for the Free Market and then act accordingly.  The place I'm willing to compromise is on the rules of that Free Market - not on socialist "reforms". 

Free market? Try dealing with

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 15:01.

Free market? Try dealing with a billion Chinese and a billion Indians with cheap labor.

Add to that China is manipulating the currency.

Bush is delusional when he says free trade is good, when our factories close.

The last 8 years has been total nonsense. 

Reagan and Clinton both said Free Trade is good before Bush did

Submitted by lagomorph on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 15:46.

And it raised 300 million Chinese and a hundred million South Asians (Indians) out of absolute starvation level poverty.  Take a look at the PBS series called The Commanding Heights (available for rental on Netflix) and you'll understand what a positive force a free market can really be.  The problem is that without any rules, free markets can exploit workers in China, India and other emerging market countries by providing low standards and no safety or hazardous materials protection - basically they're operating in a 19th century mindset.  It's very unethical, it creates shoddy products and it pollutes the environment.

When manufacturing moved into other countries, America needed to retrain her workers to participate in new opportunities created by the global economy.  All of the states which lost manufacturing jobs have the highest state tax rates in the country and tremendous union strangleholds.  A combination of bad policies, refusal by unions to negotiate with management, and free markets without rules (creating excessively cheap goods due to low mfg standards) created the problem.  The idea is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, it's to save the baby and clean up the bathwater.  Think on it, and watch The Commanding Heights while you do.  I promise, you'll never see the economy the same way again. 

 <<without any

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 16:24.

 <<without any rules>> 

Precisely the point. Workers exploited in third world countries and also in ours. As our wages have to come down to third world labor.

<<retrain her workers>>

And what opportunities exist, when you see jobs going overseas. When what is offered is less pay, healthcare, and pensions. Again there are only so many kinds of products made. What other industry are you going to employ hundreds of thousands of people. I have stated how you invest in people and the country. You talk about high taxes and that does not fly. I will match those high taxes with wages, healthcare, pensions, social security, and OSHA. Companies will go for cheap labor. LIke I said, 8 years of nonsense.

If high taxes is the problem. Then why is it that in Ireland, which is the poster child of low taxes, Dell has closed its plant and moved it to Poland. Cheap labor anyone?

I have no problem with free markets and competition. But this country has not begun to deal with globalization. Now if you have a president that says "free trade" is good and the factories close, then I think we have a problem. But Bush has sent our money to Iraq. Again, not dealing with out problems. Now the cities and states want bailouts. Again, just total ignorance for the past 8 years. If you have a problem, fix it.

This is typical of what happens with republicans, ignoring middle class issues. And therefore they are pinned as the party for the rich. 

The war was a tremendously expensive misadventure

Submitted by lagomorph on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 18:19.

And just because the surge succeeded, there is no reason to condone the massive waste of blood and treasure prior to that recent success - on this we agree.

Poland, where Dell has "fled", is a free market country.  It was Margaret Thatcher who convinced Lech Walesa and his Solidarity Party to challenge the Communists at the polls.  After they won the election in a landslide, and the markets began to unfreeze, there was the very unfortunate "shock therapy" response which is typical in former socialist countries as they struggle to enter a free market economy.  Prices rose and poverty increased - temporarily.  Jeffrey Sachs was one of those responsible for saving Poland from the economic collapse of Argentina and the pain of Bolivia because the Polish government actually followed his advice to let the markets unfold without government intervention to "fix" them.

When you consider all the benefits of full employment, especially if you feel that no one should be without work or suffer financial hardship because the government should provide, please research what happened in the Soviet bloc countries under Communist rule.  There was full employment, but absolutely no profit.  People lived at a lower level of poverty than the poorest in this country on welfare.  There were no "supermarkets" anywhere - most markets were completely barren of goods, any goods available were sold on the black market.  Life was miserable, hours were long, but by God people were fully "employed".  Under Stalin's regime, full employment consisted, for many "enemies of the state", in slave labor camps where starvation, disease and torturous living were the norm.  I've been unemployed several times in my career and it's never been what I wanted, but we must help each other understand that there are far worse things in other countries and cultures and philosophies in the world than being unemployed in ours.  The trick is to be able to return to work in a reasonable length of time (6-12 months in my opinion).

By bailing out the auto industry and financial institutions who are still not lending because of their need to hoard capital to prepare for the $100B in defaulted credit card debt that's about to hit the banks over the next 12 months, rather than letting them fail and either reorganize or be sold to other institutions where they could be made more profitable, we may have extended our economic misery.  In other words, instead of undergoing economic "shock" for 6-12 months, during which time many people could suffer through unemployment, we may create the kind of horrible inflation and stagnant job market that will keep people unemployed for a decade.  It will also keep your children and grandchildren in trillions of dollars of debt for many generations - which is, if you think about, another form of slavery.

So we agree on the war being a really stupid enterprise and we agree on rules for the market economy, but we disagree on the value of globalization (in my experience those foreign companies come back around to the U.S. to hire us).  As for the party of the rich, Republicans have subsidized oil, pharmaceutical and insurance companies' greed through favorable legislation - no doubt about it, and it's a tragedy.  I call it corporate socialism, others call it corporate welfare.  As far as actual demographics are concerned, however, there are more wealthy Democrats than Republicans in today's environment.  It's almost impossible to favor one party over another when they've both made so many errors at our expense, so I think another thing we share is anger with Republicans - but I have the same anger toward Democrats and I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to "fix" the economy by reverting to old, failed, Keynesian economic policies.

Okay, we are not connecting.

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 18:49.

Okay, we are not connecting. We recognize free markets. I have offered solutions on this thread. I have not seen any solution to the globalization problems from the right. The jobs are not coming back. The stores are full of Chinese stuff and it will not stop. You need as I have said so many times before, infrastructure spending, energy independence, mandatory vocational training, embryonic stem cell research, science, innovation, research and development. You will also need some government and industry alliance for new sciences. We cannot compete with third world wages. 

There is some disconnect.

I am not saying that the government should "provide." I am saying that the government has to recognize problems and deal with them. You have to  manage problems when they arise. 

I have no problem with other countries wanting a good life. But it is the U.S. that is doing nothing. We are losing our standard of living. By opening up the world with third world labor we will lose our standard of living. So that is why we need the education and innovation. And other countries are doing that and we are not.

You don't know what the fix is from the democrats. The fact remains, we have to spend ourselves out of the financial mess, to keep from going into a downward spiral. Bush has already spent trillions and all that money is wasted. We have had 8 years of failed policy.

Also you complain about inflation and a stagnant job market. And what in the world would you call 8 years of deficits and debt. And we are printing the money now. The economy is a total disaster. 

Read my other post on this thread.

 

Well, I have my own agenda.

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 14:33.

Well, I have my own agenda. And I have said it many times, some of it coincides with Obama.

We have had tax cuts for 8 years and that was borrowed money and we are back into a recession. I have not seen the tax cuts create long term middle class jobs. We are losing to globalization. We cannot compete with third world wages. We have been down this road with the Japanese for 30 years. And now it is China, India, and other countries. We cannot compete with 1 billion Chinese and 1 billion Indians.

So to make this short, we need the following:

>>infrastructural spending, though limited, we need to take care of neglected areas.

>>energy independence and getting away from OPEC. Everything from drilling in Alaska, offshore, nuclear power, and alternative energy.

>>mandatory vocational training as students can no longer graduate and just go to a factory.

>>embryonic stem cell research, just one science as an example where we are losing the lead in medical technology as Singapore is subsidizing and taking our scientists.

>>science, innovation, research and development. I see in the future alliances with government and industry. We have to create new industries that will replace the old. There are also 700,000 patents that need attending. For example, we need to create a battery for cars that will run on 100+ miles on a charge. China will bring in a car that will run at 63 miles to a charge.

You do whatever it takes to create jobs.

Tax cuts do not solve the problems. The 8 years of tax cuts are used up. And now how do you get out of the recession and how do you create jobs that will stay in the country and not subject to leaving the country. Cities and states are going broke as factories close. People are losing jobs, having wage pressures, losing healthcare, and losing pensions. 

I have heard remarks that we will only hire illegals. Well, it is Americans that are losing jobs.

I have also heard that this is an information society. Oh really. Then tell it to the people who are losing jobs. These nerds on Wall Street and in Washington come up with these bright ideas and they have no answer for it. Bush has talked of free trade and factories close. Obama is trapped in a corner with so many problems as the problems piled up with laissez-faire for the past 8 years. Now, we sit around and watch the flowers grow like the past 8 years or we can do something about it.

And then you want companies like Apple or Google or Dell to create jobs. But most of them build their factories overseas. Again, it is globalization. And we have to deal with it.

http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=5656

http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/china.html

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/electric-car-battery-makers-see...

Jason and Jon need to look deeper

Submitted by jaydedman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 15:10.

I agree that we need banking reform. We need to let companies die that cannot survive in this day and age.

But I disagree that we are wholly "information economy" as a nation. There are still a significant number of people in the US who are even barely part of the internet. It's ridiculous to think that even in an Information economy that no one would be needed to build things.

We're in this mess partly because we allowed all our manufacturing/food production to go overseas. As the supply of fossil fuels continue to be more volitile, eating grapes from Argentina on your Chinese-made chair won't be possible. It would be very nice to have a national electric grid that could transfer wing energy from the Midwest to the coasts.

I live 90 minutes outside of Washignton DC, the US capitol. No one in our area gets broadband. So even if you want a total Information economy, you first got to everyone connected to the Information. The US is much more than the urban areas.

 

 

 

How many high schools still offer shop classes?

Submitted by lagomorph on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 15:55.

Americans could create thriving markets for hand-crafted goods of quality workmanship like furniture, frames, quilts, stained glass lamps and windows, doll houses and playhouses, clothing, jewelry, art and other items that we used to be able to start learning to create in good old wood, metal and machine shop classes.  Oh, and don't even get me started on the fact that feminists have successfully lobbied to eliminate "Home Economics" classes like sewing and cooking because it stereotypes women (never mind that a lot of boys like to cook and sew and a lot of women like to know how to change their oil and use a saw and tools.  A lot of information technology workers also like to work with our hands - and it would be nice to obtain the skills at the same early age as we now learn video gaming techniques.

Well, I had 12 years of nuns

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 16:44.

Well, I had 12 years of nuns and priests. About all I learned was some French, poetry, Shakespeare, and religion. I signed up early for service (during Vietnam) and with a half a year to go I asked if I could take typing as that was the requirement for the job in service, and they said no, as they only teach 1 year classes. So I had to work things around and go a few blocks away to the public school to pick up the typing. Other than that, I had no other skills. While I did other things beforehand, most people (including me) who had no skills went to the factory. Luckily, I am retired. However, I have no sense of direction for a vocation. My brother is a lawyer and always knew what he he wanted. So some people know what to do and others don't. And this has to be addressed in high school.

The problem with hand crafted goods, are the massed produced items in the stores. My stepfather made cabinets. You can go to the big box store and buy cabinets probably from China much cheaper. A terrific skill though.

We agree on yet another thing

Submitted by lagomorph on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 18:44.

Vocational skills must be taught in high school.  I, like you, had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with my life until I was in my late 20's.  If I hadn't taken typing and shorthand in high school, I'd have never been able to do temporary work in between the several colleges I attended before I finally graduated and the "real" jobs that laid me off.  I went to college on the G.I. Bill after serving in the Navy as a WAV during the Vietnam War, and I should be retired but I'm actually on my third career now and have no plans to retire - ever.  Rewarding work is the essence of Life, in my view.

Each career change required me to go either to college or technical school, but the point is that it was my high school vocational skills that allowed me to go to school at night and do $10-12/hour temp work during the day.  I had no insurance, I lived paycheck to paycheck in a studio apartment, and  I just figured "this is the way it is until I get to the next level."  I just never felt oppressed, downtrodden, abused, disenfranchised or disempowered.  Vocational skills gave me the confidence not to have to depend on the government to save me - when I collected Unemployment, I figured I'd earned it.  I would love to see today's kids get the same break that would give them that safety net and confidence as well.

focus, please

Submitted by Jason Sterlace on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 17:15.

My point was never that the US is a wholly "information economy" as a nation.  I never said any such thing.  The point is that unlike 1933, unemployment is not primarily among physical laborers.  Besides which, we don't dig ditches by hand anymore.  Only a small percentage of the unemployed would be directly affected for TVA-style New Deal projects, but it is being touted as a panacea.

Public works projects are a bad answer to unemployment.  Infrastructure projects need to be taken on as infrastructure projects, not jobs programs.

Pretty much agree with that.

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 17:29.

Pretty much agree with that. Infrastructure is being overplayed. I use it to include energy independence and other areas such as a new air traffic control system. It is not the only answer to our problems.

okay, let's be more focused

Submitted by jaydedman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 18:12.

I agree that blowing another trillion dollars is going to solve any problems. Neither party is bold enough to say that we need to feel some pain so the deadwood can fall away. No one wants to live through the hangover that we have earned as a country.

But to be fair, I feel Obama is saying he wants to invest in infrastructure...and this will provide jobs. People really want to hear the jobs part since so few people are far-thinking to realize that strong infrastructure lays the foundation for everything.

Digging ditches by hand. Digging ditches by human-controlled machines. What's the difference? If Congress passes this trillion dollar legislation, construction firms will need plenty of educated technical people to organize projects. Power towers will need plenty of scientific/technical development before a single bolt is turned.  So we aren't just talking jobs for ditch diggers. Whether or not this will jump start the economy is another question.

Another critique is simply that this kind of post makes me cringe. It's a totally negative criticism without any suggestion for a better plan. Okay, so Obama's plan sucks. Where do you stand? No one wants to be the one to plant a flag during this incredibly stressful time for fear of being wrong. It's one thing to be partisan, but some of us want to actually live in a healthy country no matter who's in charge.

I'll keep repeating this for the next year as Republican criticism keeps sniping every move of this new administartion. Big government conservatives controlled Congress and the Presidency for 6 YEARS! They succeeded in equally government spending with LBJ and solving very few long-term problems. The Democrats are now in this same position. It's easy to criticize when you aren't in power. And seems even easier to take little responsibility when you are in power.

 

 

 

 

Hypocrisy, thy name is liberal

Submitted by Jon Sandor on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 18:53.

I'll keep repeating this for the next year as Republican criticism keeps sniping every move of this new administartion.

Yeah, it would terrible if Obama was treated the same way you treated Bush.

Jon, let's hold hands

Submitted by jaydedman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 21:59.

If the Obama Administration has to spend as much time covering up for their incompetency and corruption as the Bush adminstration did, people will legitimately be sniping at them just as much. I'll be the loudest. I'm tired of incompetency period.

I just don't understand Republicans. These leaders preach about small government, "old school" conservatism....and they are nothing of the kind. You are like alcoholic children who keep making excuses for the bruises. So if anyone deigns to criticize, you call them liberal. Yawn. Turn on some Rush Hannity and tell me about the boogeyman mommy.

Why don't we start to accept some responsibility. If Obama's plan is bogus, let's talk solutions. Step up to the plate.

By all means

Submitted by Jon Sandor on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:12.

let me know what "corruption" and "incomptence" you have in mind.

I think the Bush administration has been the most liberal within living memory. That said, it's also been the cleanest in living memory.  Team Obama already has more ethical clouds around it than the Bush team gathered in eight years.

I just don't understand Republicans. These leaders preach about small government, "old school" conservatism....and they are nothing of the kind.

No, you knumbskull, Bush never preached a word about small government. Neither did that clown McCain. These peope hate "old school conservatism" as badly as you do.

In any case why would you care if they did? You're supporting the people who think the Republicans were tightwads, and who promise to print and spend money like the world ends tomorrow.

Why don't we start to accept some responsibility.

What's this "we" garbage?

Keep sweet talking me

Submitted by jaydedman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:31.

Okay, so where do we go from here? I'm serious about wanting to know what solutions should be on the table. (Your insults are just pillow talk, you big lug.)

well, a start would be

Submitted by Ironman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:54.

not to enact a series of liberal litmus test agenda items that are anti-business and going to slow down the economy.

I would also suggest someone do an ROI analysis of what the "highest and best use" of infrastructure dollars might be----before they are spent.  I suspect we would yield a good return from retrofitting the HVAC systems of public buildings by reducing operating costs in the outyears, but that might not seem very sexy.

One other way to prevent waste would be to structure this as a loan program and not grants. This also meets the "honest Keynesian" standard of causing the fiscal stimulus to become a slight drag on the economy after the recovery gets under way, hopefully putting in place protection against inflation and bubbles; it also would limit the long term increase in the federal debt.  If an interest free loan is too expensive for a state or locality; maybe the project isn't worthy of getting funded.

BTW, I'm sorta down with the critique of the "information society" meme; there are still millions of jobs in less trendy businesses and they contribute to the national wealth . You aren't going to get a 45 year old truck driver in Altoona to suddenly start writing code in Los Altos.

Agreed

Submitted by jaydedman on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 10:30.

If we are going to build infrastructure, I would rather see us determine what projects will actually be useful versus what projects are simply "shovel ready".

The other option is to not do anythng at all. Let deadwood fall away. Feel the pain. There is a part of me that feels this is necessary, but I don't see many leaders (or anyone) advocating for this unless I've missed it.

I advocate for it.

Submitted by chemjeff on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 19:23.

Actually I advocate for trimming taxes, spending and regulations to create a better business climate.  But, I'll take "doing nothing" over "big-ass pork-barrel money-wasting debt-creating non-stimulus" any day.

Well you asked for

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 23:27.

Well you asked for it.

>campaigned against nation building (Iraq)

>campaigned on cutting spending,(deficits and debt)

>Never talked to Bob Gates, James Baker, or his father about Iraq

>Neo-cons in the White House convinced Bush to attack Iraq

>Osama Bin Laden still not caught

>cost of war into the trillions

>never had enough soldiers

>Mexican border still open

>refuses to pardon the two border agents doing their job

>cheap labor for business

>said "Brownie your doing a heck of a job while people suffer

>Always said he did not know about something, while it is inconceivable that he didn't.(conference before Hurricane Katrina, Iran NIE report, etc.

>ignoring our infrastructure and spending billions in Iraq

>expands medicare

>wanted Social Security one way. No compromise

>Tom Delay closed the door to democrats

>Karl Rove closed the door to democrats

>Four amendments to the constitution at risk

>using signing statements on laws passed then interprets the law his way

>Uses his attorney general as his lawyer and not the lawyer for the constitution

>Cheney and lawyers giving more power to the president

>loses his own congress

>Harriet Myers debacle

>Scooter Libby and scandals

>ignorance, arrogance, incompetence

>Bush looks at things one way or no way

>deficits every year of his presidency in which Clinton had surpluses

>the dollar going down the tubes

>middle class jobs being lost, also pensions, and healthcare

>47 million without healthcare

>vetoes embryonic stem cell research funding two times on religious grounds

>the manipulation of power by Dick Cheney

>Putting religion in government

>introduces corn ethanol, which does not do anything to our energy problems.

>campaigns on global warning and breaks promise to Christine Todd Whitman

>in denial of global warning and embryonic stem cell research and the present day 

  destruction of embryos

>manipulation of global warning information and embryonic stem cell research by 

  putting their own spin on it

>missing e mails

>decline in medical research for over five years

>ordered by a federal judge to report on global warming, 4 years late 29 May 08

>supposedly North Korea is off the hook in having 10 nuclear weapons produced during 2003, when the Bush administration was busy with Iraq

>Karl Rove ignoring subpoena

>laissez-faire does not work

>tax cuts did not create prosperity

>tax cuts created deficits

>tax cuts has seen this country slow down and is being rescued by a stimulus package  

  and more debt

>ignores, like past presidents, an energy problem

 

Thanks for recycling that stuff

Submitted by Ironman on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 05:44.

But how pray tell does it relate to providing useful advise now to the Republicans or Obama.

You think Bush failed . Fine.  We get it.  And, hmmm, now what.

Stop being a bandwidth thief and contribute something useful. 

It was asked and I gave it. I

Submitted by In between on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 07:27.

It was asked and I gave it. I think one of the faults we have with a presidency gone bad, is that you can't fire the guy. Although, Nixon was driven out. And in this case, it doesn't matter which party, but I saw signs of a lot of things wrong 5 years ago, and we put up this all this time and the country is in worse shape. CEO's get fired. But we can't fire a president. Now I can understand this with politics, but I find it amazing that nothing was done. 

complaints aren't advise

Submitted by Ironman on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 07:43.

come back when you learn the difference (see, took less than 10 words)

Ignorance. (1 word) 

Submitted by In between on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 08:10.

Ignorance. (1 word) 

well identifying one's limitation is a start

Submitted by Ironman on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 08:28.

now you can correct them

Come on

Submitted by jaydedman on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 10:23.

In Between--I came to this blog because I wanted to have a serious conversation. It seems that most folks agree that Bush at least have proven to be problematic. Let's move on.

I got no beef with anyone here as long as we're trying to move the conversation forward and are serious about what parts of reality we agree on.

 

I also want a serious

Submitted by In between on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 10:46.

I also want a serious conversation. The question was asked on corruption and incompetence. I gave an answer. Okay. It is over and done with. I have given plenty of info on the threads on how you deal with the economy and such.  And what I have found when a political party gets into trouble (both democrats and republicans) is that they are clueless for some time. So I hope that I can contribute in a positive way. I am angry over the 8 years we have seen and we can learn from it.

There is more to this

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 19:01.

There is more to this "infrastructure" than being articulated. People are overplaying the name, but there is more to it as you say. Part of it is psychology. You have to give people hope. You have to give people aspirations. You need to give people a self worth. We have not had that for at least 8 years. Maybe in the Clinton years and past, we could have taken things for granted. But with globalization, and especially what we have seen in the last 8 years of absolutely nothing, I think people will appreciate whatever new that comes up.

are we going to monetize psychobabble?

Submitted by Ironman on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 21:11.

Jeez, the shovels are looking better than psychotherapy.

People have not had "self-worth" for 8 years?  Really .

Guess the "depression" started during the midst of the real estate bubble then. Who knew?

I didn't see much of a real

Submitted by In between on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:18.

I didn't see much of a real estate bubble where I live. Prices went up on existing house for sure, but we did not build the condos in Ohio, like they did in Miami or Las Vegas. What I have seen is factories closing even during good times. They pushed me out 4 years ago. They hired new workers at less wages only to fill in enough till they sent the jobs to Mexico. There are factories closing up all over the Midwest. And now it is the restaurants as there was just too much competition. Add to that Home Depot.

I have seen an administration with its tax cuts for the rich, for industry that still moved out, and consumed with an Iraq war. I am seeing the middle class lose jobs, wages, healthcare, and pensions.

I have seen plenty of cycles and you always came back to work when you recover, but these jobs are not coming back. And that is the difference.

We have to focus anew. I realize that government cannot hold anyones hands. But they have a responsibility to recognize problems as they happen. And we don't need to hear stupid remarks like "free trade is good" when we see factories close.

And this is where the republicans have missed out in my opinion. They always have a disconnect with the middle class. Again, as I said before, the party for the rich. And I have argued against that word in the past, but it holds true. The party for the rich. 

Story from my youth

Submitted by lsheldon on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 15:13.

Man walks up to the forman of a gang, introduces hims self as the new man assigned.

Forman tells him to join the group lounging off to the side of the road.

Time passes, new man approaches the forman, and says "I aint got a shovel."

Forman tells him to rejouin the group, he'll deal with the shovel issue in a bit.

This gets repeated several times until it is clear that the new man is seriously agitated.

Forman is puzzled.  "You are on the gang, you will get paid, but I'm to busy to assign you all to tasks.  You are getting paid, you don't have to do anything, why in the world are you so upset?"

"Why don't you just go over there and wait with them like I TOLD YOU TO?"

New man says "They've got shovels to lean on.  I aint got a shovel."

 

Show me how your "Information Economy"

Submitted by Repack Rider on Mon, 01/19/2009 - 22:24.

...builds a bridge.  Someone has to hammer nails and pave roads, and if you are too proud or too "overqualified" then you can remain unemployed and give that job to an illegal.

SOMEBODY is going to have to build this stuff.  I have done a lot of things for money, and I'm not worried about getting my hands dirty.  I'm even proud of how hard I have worked on occasion, not that it seems like a prevalent sentiment here.  Hard work must be for the little people who aren't as smart as people who post on blogs.  Somehow I don't think America will be rebuilt with blog posts.

When did Americans get so decadent and helpless that we can't build our own roads or repair our own sewage systems, and we have to bring in foreigners like the Romans did?  Why do decadent and helpless people even deserve freedom?

I'm with you

Submitted by lagomorph on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 18:59.

in more ways than one.  The birth of the phrase "work Americans won't do" was, in my opinion, the beginning of the end of our cultural foundation that told us we could make anything of ourselves as long as we were willing to work hard and do whatever it takes to succeed.  "Whatever it takes" in terms of ethical, legal behavior that is - as opposed to the Chicago, Wall  Street, Gangsta and other similar methods.

We'll be able to tell how successful the infrastructure programs are at creating jobs by watching stocks like Caterpillar, which has fallen from $82.64 in April, 2008 down to $39.55 in January, 2009.  Market analysts indicate that as Caterpillar goes, so will the rest of the infrastructure equipment companies. 

One caution to those who deplore globalization and think of Obama's infrastructure programs as local U.S. jobs, however, is that the legislation for infrastructure programs does not contain a clause that specifies "Buy American".  This means that many of the materials that go into the projects will probably be purchased overseas - creating many, perhaps even more, jobs outside the U.S. 

 

I guess that is par for the

Submitted by In between on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 19:13.

I guess that is par for the course, depending on foreigners. We rely on money from foreigners, we rely on oil from foreigners, we rely on parts from foreigners, and we rely on on Russian aircraft to ship the new armored vehicles.

In time of crises, you will have to wonder what we would do. 

Does anyone think we can defend Taiwan, when we have to borrow from China?