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What Is The Case Against HCR
Do you believe that there is a need for reform of our health care insurance system? If not, why, and if so, what form would you like it to take?
Here is my take, stated as simply as possible.
1) The current system is unsustainable, on four levels.
- a) too many people cannot get health insurance (pre-existing conditions) or cannot afford it
- b) insurance company practices, like rescissions after years of paying premiums, are indefensible
- c) insurance premiums are rising much faster than inflation or income, which means (a) is just going to get worse
- d) our health care costs more than any other country, without producing commensurate increases in outcomes; without reform these costs are going to continue to rise
2) There is no free-market solution to this problem. Sound-bites like shopping across state lines and tort-reform are nonsensical non-answers.
3) Given that the private sector is failing, spectacularly, I'm happy to have the government intervene.
4) Currently, the ER, which cannot turn people away, is the primary care provider for million. If there is going to be reform, there are only two ways to fix this and to prevent free-riders: the mandate, or the wallet biopsy. I prefer the mandate, as I think the wallet biopsy is just too much to ask of medical professionals.
Yesterday chemjeff posted a blog entry characterizing HCR as enforced charity. I think that charity has nothing to do with it. I think the issue is the strain on our economy caused by spiraling healthcare costs.
- John Smith's blog
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Comments
correction
I did not characterize all of health care reform as "enforced charity". I only discussed the particularly obnoxious provision that those who don't buy health insurance will go to jail. This part IS enforced "charity" - there can be no other reason to force people who don't need or want health insurance to buy it, if not for the "common good".
Dear chemjeff
On another thread you said if I made a blog entry specifically about health insurance reform you would post your views on the need for HCR, or the lack thereof. So, lets have it.
To be clear on the point,
To be clear on the point, there is no provision that those who don't buy health insurance would go to jail. The industry tried to get that enacted; it failed. Under the present bill, if you don't carry health insurance, you pay a special tax. Willful tax evasion can get you jail time, but that's already the case, and always has been.
As for what's on the table
a) It's not going to reduce costs
b) Therefore, despite what the WSJ might have thought, the business community has bailed. Unless you think this frantic e-mail from Moveon.org is crying wolf about my Pelosi lapdog of a congressman
(I'm not about to credit Moveon.org's own analysis as unbiased; maybe you are)
Sadly, I think what Obama and the Democrats in Congress have done is give what might be a potentially useful idea a really bad name. Consider this Gallup poll finding public support for health care guarantees evaporating
I don't these guys with their numbers, I don't trust their ideology and I don't trust them to be competent. The polls show this is not a fringe opinion. Without a consensus of trust on these core values, this whole endeavor is a waste of time.
Really, Ironman...
Why don't you click through and have a look at the report itself? 34 million more people will have coverage. So, yes, covering more people costs more money. Moreover, the report does not dispute the CBO's analysis that the overall bill would result in a net deficit reduction.
You spent a lot of time yesterday saying that government reports and statistics and things that appear in the press are all hogwash - except, it seems, for things produced by the state of CT. So why all the sudden is Politico's distorted analysis of the CMMS report authorative? Is it just another instance of your tendency to believe only the things that tell you what you want to hear?
One more thing: Eleven top experts in health care economics said this:
28 - 32 = 12
Here is a little more detailed explanation on the federal government's wonderful ability to do math.
Oh, and BTW: your eleven "top experts in health care economics" is a who's who of liberal professors and left-wing interest groups. So I don't know exactly what you were trying to prove here, other than leftists support leftist legislation. Surprise!
Really "John"
a) the CT statistics are based on actual observables such as payrolls and tax receipts. Most of the numbers you tend to treat as gospel truth lack such hard empirical documentation; or worse, are projections offered by interested parties to the debate.
I don't know whether Nancy Wyman supports HCR or not. I do know her job is to make sure the State of CT doesn't bounce checks. Her numbers, therefore, are given more credence by the likes of me that those presented by the likes of Obama or Pelosi who are lobbying for legislation.
b) The problem you face is your side insists that HCR is the policy version of a perpetual motion machine. Somehow the same folks that botched the swine flu vaccine and cash for clunkers will treat more people at less cost with no deterioration of service. The American public has decided the laws of physics have not been repealed, and as I noted, the present administration's initial efforts have not been a model of efficiency and effectiveness--that says a lot considering the poor esteem the prior crew was held in.
When even the most hard-line lefty partisans like Moveon.org are forced to concede the present bill "is far from perfect" is it any wonder that moderates and independent voters might conclude that it sucks?
c) In that vein, and since you love statistics, mind explaining the Gallup poll I cited? Are they now part of the vast right wing conspiracy, too?
"far from perfect"
Ironman, but you've got to admit, the reason why Moveon.org thinks the bill is "far from perfect" is that it doesn't include show trials and public execution of health insurance company CEOs.
I'm sure I can find a whole bunch of "experts"
who hate the bill. Boy the "Center for American Progress", the "Brookings Institution" and the "New America Foundation" are exactly who I would consider unbiased. I'm sure you don't buy Heritage and the CATO Insitute, well, pot meet kettle.
So you think that
Harvard University Medical School,Harvard University,Georgetown University, University of Southern California, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Harvard University School of Public Health, & Dartmouth College are institutions unqualified to opine on this topic?
The problem is, in the words of Stephen Colbert, that reality has a well-known liberal bias.
But yet I'd bet you'll happily quote whatever the insurance companies pay a loon like Betsy McCaughey to say. Especially if she is from CT.
appeal to authority
"Institutions" don't opine, individuals do. Your previous post cited opinions of individual professors at these institutions, not the official position of Harvard University Medical School.
Besides, even if the official position of MIT was in favor of socialized medicine - so what? Should we do it just because they say so? That is the "appeal to authority" fallacy.
Experts are expert in their fields
And that is why we should listen to them. Do you want to just pick a random guy off the street and have him decide what our troop levels are in Afghanistan? Or do you want the experts to have their opinions listened to?
pick a random guy off the street ..have him decide troop levels"
Now I understand what the President's approach to military issues is!
On the issue of "reality", here's how the "public option" worked
I consdier myself far more of an empirist than an ideologue. The empirical evidence from the various state-level experiments into "public option" universal health care is well, not a good argument for taking the idea nationwide.
I defer to that noted organ of the far right, the New York Times
Ok, I'm sure the august professors can explain how Maine did it wrong, but let's face it. Maine is the "real world", Frankly, it has a more enlightened bipartisan political class than most states and a population which is stable and ethnically homogenous; which should make a UHC system easier to run than that of an urban, diverse transient state.
And it basically failed. So why, exactly, should I take the word of some ideologically driven academicians when the entire political class of Maine couldn't make a go of this idea?
Remember, the "experts" also told Wall Street the deriviatives markets would prevent and contain risk; instead it led to a contagion of bad debt and securities which had no market value. Given the choice of a guy in the trenches or a guy playing with equations, give me the street smarts any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Once again
you should read all of the thing you link to:
Catch that last bit? Maine - Republican - supports national overhaul.
Maine wants the federal government to baill out its "reform"
So, who bails out the federal government?
As Margaret Thatcher said, the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money? (Q: Did running the UK give her enough qualifications, or should I find some professor on George Soros's payroll instead?)
By the way, have you looked at the fiscal situation in the so-called "rich states" like CT, NJ, NY, CA, and MD? Who exactly does have the sort of money to make this system work
One final point on ME Republicans. Olympia Snowe's approval rating with local Republicans is upside down. The gentlemen quoted by the NY Times lost his primary for Governor in 2006., garnering just 35% of the vote. The peasants may have a word soon with the folks running the local GOP, and the elitists might not like what they had to hear.
It's easy to "read" articles. You need to know a bit more to understand them.
Q: What medical system did Margaret Thatcher
oversee?
Back to the original question....
the case against HCR , to me, boils down to this.
a) It failed on the state level. see Maine, MA, and Hawaii
b) If there hasn;t been an effective state level model. I'm not going to support pouring a trillion dollars into trying to make a failed state level model work. Especially when the fiscal condition of the federal government argues for cutting it, not expanding it.
c) The public now doesn't want it. And it's not like the President and a bunch of special interests didn;t explain things to them.
Dunno, maybe I'm just a dumb mick lawyer in the 'burbs, and not some Harward professor, but unproved, expensive and unpopular isn't a great sales pitch to me.
Maybe you guys can start over after Obamacare fails.
OK, that is
a dumb mick lawyer in the 'burbs heard from.
What do the doctors in your region think?
NEJM - 452 doctors in the northeast region, asked to indicate which of three options for expanding health insurance coverage they would most strongly support: public and private options; private options only; or a public option only:
health insurance reform
But, more to your main point. First, it should be labeled "health insurance reform" rather than "health care reform" because the current plan is seeking to modify how health insurance works, not the care itself.
First let's remember what insurance really is: it's a hedge against risk. I pay insurance premiums in order to transfer the risk associated with catastrophic loss. The more risk I transfer, the higher the premiums.
Let's address your different points:
Well, if someone has a pre-existing condition, that person will generally have more risk to transfer, so it is only right and fair that those with more risk to transfer pay higher premiums. Only if you buy into the false egalitarianism of "we're all equal" could you make a case that everyone's health insurance premiums be the same. Guess what - we're not all equal. Some of us are sicker than others. Does life suck sometimes? Yes.
No, they are mostly defensible. A rescission is when a policy is revoked after the fact. This can happen if applicants lie in order to get insurance (e.g., lying about pre-existing conditions). If I lie about the state of my health to make it appear that I am not as risky as I really am, then I've engaged in fraud and my policy ought to be revoked. Of course it can work the other way as well - an insurance company may revoke the policy with little or no basis for their decision. In that case, they've broken their contract and the aggrieved party should seek redress in court. This is the way it's supposed to work when there's a contract dispute. So I'm failing to understand how the system is "broken" in this regard.
True, but why are health insurance premiums rising so fast? Part of it is because we are simply aware of more risk now than we were in the past - we are more knowledgeable about more diseases. Part of it is simply because we are getting richer as a country, and with some of that wealth we purchase a higher quality of health (more frequent health screenings, etc.). Part of it is because the cost associated with medical technology grows - an MRI costs more than a stethoscope. But, part of it is because of the high medical malpractice insurance premiums that doctors pay, along with "defensive medicine" strategies, and these extra costs are passed on in the form of higher costs of services delivered. So, tort reform that would reduce medical malpractice insurance would also lower health insurance premiums. If you're really in favor of making health insurance more affordable, why not also support tort reform? I don't know why you dismiss it out of hand.
And, part of the rising cost is due to government regulations and mandates about what policies must or must not contain. As a single male, I am not interested in purchasing insurance to cover fertility treatments, yet depending on where I live, I have no choice but to do so if I want any health insurance at all. If I'm permitted to shop across state lines, then I can get a policy somewhere else that doesn't have ridiculous coverage that I don't need and hence saves me money. Again you dismiss this out of hand, but if it helps individuals lower their personal health insurance burdens, why not favor it?
Finally, part of the rising cost is associated with waste and fraud. Why is there so much waste and fraud? Because the real consumers of health care are not the patients, they are the insurance companies. So the higher premiums get passed on to those who pay for the health insurance, which, typically, is not the patient, but the employer. The employer passes on these costs in the form of reduced benefits, reduced pay, or reduced profit for the business. So by the time the costs are shifted to the actual patient, they've been dispersed and hidden so much that it's hard for the patient to even notice that premiums have gone up. There's no real economic mechanism for the patient to tell the insurance company "stop putting up with so much fraud". Quite the contrary - because we as patients don't see any economic benefit from reducing fraud, we are put in a position to try to "game the system" and get as much for us as we can. After all, it's a "free" lunch! And merely mandating that everyone buy health insurance won't change this aspect of rising insurance premiums one bit - in fact, it will only make it worse, as more patients enter the system trying to 'game' it. (Incidentally, out of all the insurance that we buy, health insurance is the only one that has such an arcane Rube Goldberg-esque web of funding. Perhaps this is a deeper clue as to why health insurance is so expensive.)
As explained above, some of the reasons why health care costs more in this country is because we are simply richer than other countries, and we have access to the best and newest (and expensive) modern medical technology. This is a good reason to have higher health care costs. I doubt anyone would favor getting rid of all the MRIs as a strategy for lowering health care costs! However you suggest that we don't get more bang for our buck. Why would anyone invest money in a new procedure or a new technology that didn't improve health outcomes? It's not rational and I doubt that's what doctors and health insurance companies are doing. Instead, to the extent that we don't get our money's worth, it is due to two other factors: (1) non-health-care-related expenses (e.g., higher medical malpractice insurance, greater levels of fraud), and (2) cultural factors. I could have the best health insurance in the world, but if I do nothing but drink, smoke, eat fatty food and sit on my ass all day, guess what, I'm going to die young. Again tinkering with the rules on health insurance won't change this reason.
So, what to do? Here is what I suggest.
1. Make the real customers, the patients, foot some of the cost. That way, there is a price signal sent to the insurance companies and the doctors that they do/don't approve of certain practices.
2. Stop giving preferential tax treatment to employers if they provide health insurance. If we all have the same tax advantages in purchasing health insurance then we can shop around and find the best deal.
3. Don't use insurance for everyday expenses. It is a hedge against risk; there is no "risk" associated with routine checkups, so why should insurance pay for it? Does car insurance pay for oil changes? Does homeowner's insurance pay for lawn mowing?
4. Increase the number of medical schools in this country. We have 30-bazillion colleges and universities, why so few medical schools? This is another reason why health care costs are expensive: doctors have huge student loan debts to pay off. Why is medical school so expensive? Because there is an artificial shortage of doctors. More medical schools means more doctors, which means lower tuitions.
5. As mentioned above, tort reform and shopping across state lines will also help.
Well this post is long enough, so I hope I've provided you with some items to think about.
Thank you.
This is a fine and lucid explanation of your position.
Where I disagree with you is this: health insurance is not like other kinds of insurance. Your car is worth $30K, so that is what you insure it for. Your house is worth $250K, so that is what you insure it for. Car gets stolen, house burns down, the contract kicks in, you get a replacement.
What is your life worth?
Health insurance in this country has morphed into access to health care. You have posted previously that you've got a "big time" college degree, you are way into computational physics, and you live in Nebraska. So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you work for a state-funded unversity and get your access to healthcare via your job.
Now, lets suppose you had childhood leukimia (and I hope you did not, just building an example here) and you also have great idea for a new business based on your unique combination of educational attainment and experience in your field.
Problem is - you daren't quit your job and start up this new company, which could be great for the economy, becasue you couldn't get health insurance.
Why are premiums rising so fast? Becasue that is what the insurance companies need to do to keep growing their profits and keep Wall Street happy.
Here is a better question: why can the Candian government cover their entire country with fewer people than a single insurance company needs to cover just New England?
PS: The idea that people can sue their insurance companies if they are unfairly dropped is sily - it is damn difficult to recover damages when you are dead becasue you couldnt get the life-saving operation you needed becasue the insurer screwed you over.
more health insurance
We are discussing health insurance, not life insurance. And life insurance companies don't attempt to quantify the worth of a human life. What you are actually purchasing is income replacement insurance.
And, incidentally, health frequently does have a dollar value associated with it. What would you pay for a flu shot? $10? $100? $1,000,000? At some point, you will forego the flu shot and live with the risk that you might get the flu.
It has, and that's dangerous and wrong. Hence my explanation on the true meaning of insurance.
I'd take it slow. I'd develop my idea in my spare time in my basement while still employed full-time. I'd give the same answer if the problem was "I couldn't afford materials for my new gizmo" or "I couldn't get financing for my new firm". Health insurance isn't unique in this manner. Besides, it's rarely a wise idea to quit a full-time job and just leap headlong into a small business without any idea if it will work or not. If I do take huge risks like that, then I shouldn't be too surprised if I fall flat on my face.
Translation: I'll just completely ignore chemjeff's clear expalantions on rising health insurance premiums and simply resort to boilerplate Marxist claptrap.
Well. There's an hour of time I won't get back.
Can you provide some more background on this claim?
1. People sue insurance companies every day.
2. Not every medical procedure is a life-or-death matter.
3. If your insurance company won't pay, and your life is at risk, then of course you pay out of pocket and sue the insurance company later. Duh. I'd rather be in debt than dead.
P.S. Don't make this discussion personal.
Here is the link
Yes, you typed out an explanation of why costs are rising - forgive me for pointing out that you skipped over the most glaringly obvious reason.
It is also so easy! I believe the cost of a quadrouple bypass is something around $100K. What do you do if your limit on your credit cards is less than that, and you are the sole bread winner for your family, and you haven't been able to work since you keeled over from your heart attack, and your insurance company has decided to screw you? Have a really big bake sale to raise the $100K in a week, and then another one later on to cover the lawyer's fees?
How much Medicare fraud is there?
Quite a bit, isn;t there?
Perhaps there's a reason private insurers spend money on overhead? Besides, if we confiscated the entire profits of the health insurance industry it wouldn't come close to paying for UHC.
Medicare fraud
The National Health Care Anti-Fraud Association, which includes private insurers and the federal government estimates that 3% of all health care spending iis lost to fraud. That was in 2007, and it worked out to $68 billion from total health care spending of $2.27 trillion.
But that is for the entire system - public and private. Well over half that spending was from the private sector, that would make the public portion around $30 billion. Medicare in 2007 was a $436 billion program. Applying the association's 3% estimate, that works out to $13 billion in Medicare fraud.
Too high? Definately. An argument in favor of continuing with our current system which will account for 1/5 of GDP in less than 10 years? No.
An argument in favor of throwing more unwatched $$ ?
Dunna about you, but $70 Billion/year seems to me to be a lot of money. At least it used to be before every week or two another trillion dollar boondoggle was being debated in Congress.
Please look up the definition of "moral hazard"? It would have been wise had people done so before ACORN shamed them via the CRA into causing banks to give out no money down mortgages to unqualified borrowers. Eliminating proper safeguards in the use of public money in health care will accomplish the same thing.
After all, instead of spending staff time trying to ascertain what a legitimate claim is, it's a lot simpler to do what they do in all the single payer systems and just make both the worthy and unworthy wait on line forever.
Given that the $70 billion is split between public and private
insurers, are you now arguing for doing away with private insurers on the grounds of their inefficiency?
A bit more on fraud
The False Claims Act is used to recover money stolen through fraud by U.S. government contractors.
The top 5 recoveries thus far:
1) Pfizer -- $1,000,000 under the False Claims ActPfizer paid a total of $2.3 billion, of which $1.3 billion was a criminal fine for kickbacks and off-label marketing and $1 billion was paid under the False Claims Act. The drugs involved were Bextra (an anti-inflammatory drug), Geodon (an anti-psychotic drug), Lipitor (a cholesterol drug), Norvasc (anti-hypertensive drug), Viagra (erectile dysfunction), Zithromax (antibiotic), Zyrtec (antihistamine), Zyvox (an antibiotic), Lyrica (an anti-epileptic drug), Relpax (anti-migraine drug), Celebrex (anti-inflammatory drug), and Depo-provera (birth control).
2) Tenet Heathcare -- $900,000,000 under the False Claims ActIn July 2006, Tenet Healthcare (formerly known as NME, see #9 on this list) agreed to pay the Federal Government $900 million for billing violations that include manipulation of outlier payments to Medicare, as well as kickbacks, upcoding, and bill padding. The DoJ press release notes that the settlement was based on the company's ability to pay; a nice of saying that Tenet stole more money than was recovered in this settlement.
3) HCA -- $731,400,000 under the False Claims ActIn December 2000, HCA The Healthcare Company (formerly known as Columbia HCA), the largest for-profit hospital chain in the United States, pled guilty to criminal conduct and agreed to pay more than $840 million in criminal fines, civil penalties and damages for unlawful billing practices. Of this amount, $731,400,000 was recovered under the False Claims Act. Under the settlement agreement, HCA's payment will resolve five allegations regarding the manner in which it bills the U.S. government and the states for health care costs. HCA 's frauds on the taxpaying public included: billing for lab tests that were not medically necessary and not ordered by physicians, "upcoding" medical problems in order to get higher reimbursements for more serious medical issues, billing the government for advertising under the guise of "community education," and billing the government for non-reimbursable costs incurred in the purchase of home health agencies around the country. Note that the December 2000 agreement does not resolve allegations that HCA unlawfully charged the U.S. Government for the costs of running its hospitals, and that it paid kickbacks to physicians to get Medicare and Medicaid patients referred to its facilities.
4) Merck - $650,000 under the False Claims ActIn January of 2008, Merck settled the very first nominal pricing fraud case in which the company was accused of taking kickback and violating Medicaid best price regulations for Vioxx (an arthritis drug), Zocor (a cholesterol drug), Pepcid (an acid-reflux drug), Cozaar (a hypertensive medication), Fosamax (a bone loss drug) Maxalt (a migraine medication) and Singulair (an asthma medication).
5) HCA -- $631,000,000 under the False Claims ActIn June 2003, HCA Inc. (formerly known as Columbia/HCA and HCA – The Healthcare Company) agreed to pay the United States $631 million in civil penalties and damages arising from false claims submitted to Medicare and other federal health programs. This settlement resolves HCA's civil liability for false claims including cost report fraud and the payment of kickbacks to physicians. In a separate administrative settlement with the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), HCA agreed to pay an additional $250 million to resolve overpayment claims arising from its cost reporting practices. Combined with the December 2000 settlement, the government has recovered $1.7 billion from HCA, by far the largest recovery ever reached by the government in a health care fraud investigation.
Notice a pattern there - re the type of company involved?
Regarding #3 - Rick Scott, the guy who ran Columbia HCA, is now running "Conservatives for Patients Rights"
HAH!
more socialized medicine
So your "source" is an opinion piece on a pro-single-payer website? Surely ye jest! Please try to do better.
In the real world, this is what happens when you get sick and you aren't insured: The hospital fixes you up, and then they send you a bill. You are now indebted to the hospital. This is what I mean by being in debt. Presumably this same thing would happen if your insurance company tries to screw you over. Nobody supports preventing people from going into hospitals if they can't pay up front. But here's the thing: Please cite some actual statistics about how often this happens, where insurance companies just decide to drop coverage for someone in the middle of an illness for which the individual is clearly covered for that illness. I bet it doesn't happen all that often, because it's a clear breach of contract and it would take about 10 minutes for any jury to award huge civil and punitive damages to the victim. Instead, I'm willing to bet that what happens is that individuals _think_ they are covered for some catastrophic event, but in reality they aren't. So if this is the case, who is really to blame? If you don't know what your health insurance covers, then it's your obligation to find out and purchase supplemental insurance to fill the gaps if necessary. I fail to see how the big bad insurance companies can be blamed for failing to provide coverage for something they never intended to provide coverage for in the first place. So, bottom line: Provide some stats please.
And I get these emotional arguments from leftists all the time - "you just have to support socialized health care, otherwise poor Tiny Tim won't be able to get his medicine!" But here's the thing: There is no such thing as a free lunch. Suppose we did have socialized medicine and Tiny Tim's medicine was "free". Where did the money come from? It came from taxpayers who, because they had to pay higher taxes to fund Tiny Tim's medicine, weren't able to invest their money into their retirement savings - or weren't able to start a new business - or weren't able to hire an additional employee - or weren't able to send their kids to college - or weren't able to donate money to local charities helping the Tiny Tims in their own communities - or weren't even able to make the house payment - because of the higher tax bill. These are the invisible victims of big government. So, before you go around demanding that people like Tiny Tim are entitled to "free" health care, perhaps you should persuade the taxpayers out there that they must work harder to pay for the higher tax bill.
You are the one who tried to persuade me that it would be "good for the economy" if the government provided my health insurance, thereby freeing me of the need to work at a full-time job that provides health insurance and thus provide me with the ability to invent the gizmo that will revolutionize science. Well, wouldn't it be "good for the economy" if government didn't tax me so much, thereby freeing me of the need to work so much to pay the tax bill and thus provide me with the ability to invent the gizmo that will revolutionize science?
Oh, and you haven't addressed any of my other points about how the status quo encourages gaming of the system and how Nancy Pelosi's 'reforms' won't do anything to stop this practice; on how rescissions are actually quite justified and not necessarily an attempt by insurance companies to screw people over; or on how we should have patients foot more of the bill for their own health care to create price sensitivity and thereby hold costs down this way. No, you just resort to Marxist nonsense, appeals to emotion, and bashing insurance companies. I'm beginning to think that this is the sum total of the leftist argument in favor of socialized medicine.
Here is the link
articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17
chemjeff says:
One CEO testified that recisions happen in 0.5% of policies. Well that is not very much, is it. But then think a little bit. Do they rescind money-making policies? No. They only start looking for an "out" when the person gets sick and starts making claims. Take it from there, Jack Taunter:
rescission
Okay, from your article:
So even the "victims" acknowledge that their insurance applications were inaccurate, whether it be maliciously so or not. Again this sounds more like "bash the insurance companies" time again. I don't think they act smartly when they drop coverage for someone who neglected to put down that they saw a doctor for an acne problem, but the reality of the matter is, if the application asks "did you see a doctor for acne" and I put down "no" when the real answer is "yes", I have misrepresented my risk. And I have violated the terms of the contract that BOTH PARTIES AGREE TO. I mean really - should insurance companies act on some vague sense of "intent" rather than the written word of a contract? The whole point of a contract is to eliminate the vagueness that arises when both parties don't have a clear agreement on the intent of a contract. And even then, if the aggrieved party thinks that the meaning of the contract itself is not clear, then he has a claim to sue in civil court - there can be no legally binding contract if there is no "meeting of the minds".
And you provide some dubious statistics from some leftwing guy's blog page. I don't know why you believe that this is supposed to impress or convince me.
Further corrections
What is mislabeled "tort reform" is nothing more than taking away your ability to sue when you're the victim of malpractice. The industry has spent a fortune trying to get this enacted, for entirely self-interested reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with improving the health care situation in the U.S.
In the real world, payouts from malpractice lawsuits account for less than half of 1% of total U.S. health care outlays. Completely eliminating all malpractice suits, regardless of merit, would do nothing to affect health care costs. And while the cost of health care has been skyrocketing, malpractice payments have been dropping, dropping, dropping. Public Citizen just crunched the latest numbers, back in July:
“For the third straight year, 2008 saw the lowest number of medical malpractice payments since the federal government’s National Practitioner Data Bank began tracking such data in 1990. The 11,037 payments in 2008 were 30.7 percent lower than the average number of payments recorded by the NPDB in all previous years. Ratios of payments per capita and per physician have fallen even lower compared to historical norms."
As for "defensive medicine," studies on this are sparse, and for obvious reasons, it's sometimes difficult to estimate. The most cited study--for reasons that will become obvious--is one done 13 years ago by Stanford economists Daniel Kessler and Mark McClellan. They estimated the costs of defensive medicine at 5-9% of health care costs. Even though only in single digits, that turned out to be an insanely inflated number. They used a dodgy methodology that, among other things, radically inflated costs, but, when reviewed, couldn't be replicated. Moreover, the larger literature on the subject, as collected by the CBO during the Bush administration, suggests defensive medicine amounts to a much more modest portion of America's total health care bill. None of the existing studies, in fact, have found anywhere near as high a cost as Kessler/McClellan. At the low end, one pegged it at three-tenths of 1%.
So there's no upside to what is pimped as "tort reform." The "savings" it may generate are microscopic, and, weighing against that, you eliminate our ability to sue quacks who butcher us and leave us crippled or dead. And if you think the current number of lawsuits is bad, consider the fact that only a very few of us who have legitimate cause to sue ever do.
tort reform
This is false. Nobody supports taking away anybody's right to sue. The object of tort reform is to limit NONECONOMIC damages. Noneconomic damages are twofold. The first is things like punitive damages, excessive lawyer's fees, and the like. If I'm "butchered" by a "quack", then I've been clearly harmed along with my ability to earn a living (I've been damaged economically) and everyone - EVERYONE - supports my right to sue the pants off that doctor for everything he's got. The second is for things that are nearly impossible to quantify, such as "emotional distress". Can you tell me what "emotional distress" is worth? $2 million? $2 billion? $2 gazillion? At some point, there should be some limit. That's the evil scary tort reform.
Here is tort reform put another way. The eeeeeeeeeeevil President Bush proposed a nationwide cap on noneconomic damages of $250,000. So suppose this cap were in place and I was harmed by medical malpractice. I would be entitled to receive the entirety of my economic damages PLUS up to an additional $250,000. I think that's enough to make me reasonably "whole" as a result - which is the ultimate goal of civil courts.
So, classicliberal2, relax and calm down. Nobody wants to take away your right to sue doctors.
Nobody supports taking away
The object of what is passed off as "tort reform"--and this is the actual, not the stated, object--is to make it as difficult as possible to sue, and that has been the case for as long as Republican politicians have pimped the idea. Strict caps on damages, "loser pays" requirements, limits on the amount you can pay your own laywers--the goal of all of it is to make it as difficult as possible to sue, and to make any potential outcome not worth the effort.
Not the "tort reformers." They want to strictly limit damages. When some quack who shouldn't even be allowed to practice medicine carves up someone under his care and leaves them paralyzed, crippled, or otherwise incapacitated, he hasn't just taken from them some lost wages they may have made--those precious "economic damages." He's taken from them their entire life, and has often left them with astronomical medical bills for the duration. Even suggesting there should be a limit to how much a victim of such treatment can win is offensive in the extreme, and the whole "economic damages" thing is even more offensive, because it's an explicit argument for a two-tiered system, one for the rich (big economic damages) and one for the poor (small ones).
Put into further context, it's more offensive, still, because, as I demonstrated earlier, there's no real problem here to solve, nothing weighing on the other side of the argument against what I've just outlined. There is NO crisis of malpractice torts. Such suits do NOT add any significant amount to our overall medical bill. It's just yet another category of wealthy people trying to put themselves above any public accountability.
Malpractie torts are barely a blip, and they'd barely even register at all if the medical profession would do anything to police its own. Malpractice suits are heavily concentrated in a relatively small number of abusive doctors who are, nevertheless, allowed to continue practicing medicine year after year. From 1990 to 2005, 57.8% of malpractice payments were made by only 5.9% of doctors. By contrast, 82% of all doctors in that time had never had a malpractice payment at all. A few years ago, a gaggle of doctors in West Virginia got a lot of press by staging a "strike"--18 of them walked off their jobs for a day to protest the malpractice system and demand "reform." The part that didn't make so big a ripple in the press is that the leader of this effort was a fellow who, in the previous 15 years, had been sued 14 times for malpractice by his patients, paying out an incredible $1.7 million. He also admitted to having been a drug addict, who operated on patients while under the influence, and even became a supplier of prescription drugs to local addicts. Nine of the 18 doctors involved in this "doctor's strike" stunt had similar records--they'd had $6 million in judgments against them over the years, and they were still practicing medicine.
tortious torts
So. First you claim tort reform proponents want to make it "impossible" for you to sue your doctor, and now you claim that tort reform proponents want to make it "as difficult as possible" to sue. Well, I suppose we're making progress. I suppose next time we'll be accused of wanting to make it "slightly burdensome" to sue.
As usual you are reading deep, dark, hidden motives where none exist. The motive is simple: to limit the cost of spiraling judgments on what constitutes making people "whole" in civil court. Civil court is about making people whole, it's not supposed to be where litigants hit the jackpot.
This is NOT TRUE. NOBODY WANTS TO LIMIT ECONOMIC DAMAGES. And guess what - if you are harmed, and the harm means you are no longer able to earn a living, well that's economic damages too and you should be fully, FULLY, compensated for that harm.
The "astronomical medical bills" are part of the economic damages, for which I, and every other tort reformer, strongly advocate that he should be compensated IN FULL. Again it's about making people whole.
No it's not. If we are going to use civil courts to settle disputes in this manner, then judgments are going to be in the form of dollars and cents. So intangible harm like "emotional distress" has to be quantifed in some manner. No one is passing judgment on whatever degree of psychic harm someone may feel as a result of negligence. Civil courts don't stand in moral judgment.
Besides, as a practical matter, there is a limit to any damages that may be awarded - you can't sue Pfizer for $1 trillion because even if you win, Pfizer doesn't have the money and will just go bankrupt, so all you will get is whatever is liquidated in bankruptcy. Is it "offensive" that you might "only" collect a few billion from Pfizer? It sounds like what you are really saying is that any case should be enough to push any company into bankruptcy.
Once again: civil court is about making people whole. It's not about closing the gap between rich and poor. If an executive making $100K per year is harmed and can no longer earn a living, then making him whole would be (as a first approximation) a lifetime annual salary of $100K, perhaps with cost of living adjustments.. If a plumber making $50K per year is harmed and can no longer earn a living, then making him whole would be a lifetime annual salary of $50K per year. I fail to see what is terribly wrong about that.
And besides you are using this extreme example of doctors horribly butchering patients. That's not the majority of civil cases. Here are some examples of more extreme cases in the opposite direction - such as a lady winning a $2 million award for "physical and emotional damages" because she couldn't open a pickle jar.
Call me crazy
but if a doctor's mistake left me blind or paralyzed it would take a hell of a lot more than the equivalent of my salary to "make me whole".
You are also arguing that CEOs have to have the very best of care whereas teenagers and janitors can be handed over to the drunks and incompetants.
more reality from John Smith
From an ECONOMIC STANDPOINT, it would. Nobody is claiming that civil courts do, or should, stand as moral judges and award damages accordingly. No civil court - no power on this earth, really - has the power to make you completely whole and return you to your unparalyzed, sighted state. The best that courts can do is award damages in terms of dollars and cents.
Nowhere have I argued such a claim.
No, not even from an economic standpoint.
No, it would not even make me whole from an economic standpoint. Becasue I'm on my way up. But take away my legs, take away my sight, and all my splendid yuppie momentum comes screeching to a halt.
And I contest that you are indeed arguing that the young and the old and the poor consistute an inferior class of patients - because maltreatment of them will cost the bad actor much, much less than if he dished out the same level of maltreatment to a CEO.
No, it would not even make me
Exactly, again. I'm nearly 40, and I'm about to enter a new career that may make me obscenely wealthy. Or it may bomb. It's sure to make more money for me than the jobs I've had in the past, or the small business I owned. Lose my eyes, and that's the end of that, and all that garbage I've done before will end up as the measure of my value. Some carpenter who lives in a trailer may one day invent some device that makes him wealthy. Some CEO, at the other end of things, may one day up broke and in jail. The "tort reformers" love to portray "economic damages" as some sort of hard, measurable figure, and put it in opposition to "non-economic damages," which are held to be amorphous. Actually, both are just as amorphous, and all a court can do is to try to serve justice as best it can, a process in which noxious "tort reformers" would interfere. One can make the argument that those "amorphous" things like pain and suffering are even more important than economic damages. The trouble dished out to someone whose quality of life is completely obliterated by some quack is worth a great deal more than his wages.
You don't have to "contest" that--that's the thing for which he is explicitly arguing.
but if a doctor's mistake
Exactly. It's a lie to even suggest "economic damages" are any less amorphous than "non-economic damages," and it's the purpose of a lawsuit to redress a grievance and bring some justice to a wrong. Again, the purpose of "tort reform" as it has been preached by the right for 20 years is to make it virtually impossible to sue. Its only advocates are insurance companies and medical professionals--both acting in a wholly self-interested fashion to insulate themselves from risk, on the one hand, and accountability on the other--and those duped by their propaganda about a malpractice "crisis" that doesn't exist (the latter fact being one chemjeff has studiously avoided addressing). The "reformers" seek to either eliminate or cap at some obscenely low figure punitive or other "non-economic" damages. The disgraceful Texas "reform" law, for example, means the life of a child, one killed by some hack but, being a child, held, under the law, to have suffered no economic damage--is worth $250,000 or less. Not a penny more under any circumstances. That's the sort of thing "tort reform" is all about.
That's something else I was getting at. Chemjeff is explicitly arguing for a two-tiered system of the rich and the rest of us.
As usual you are reading
No, I'm simply following a very basic principle of law that says predictable outcome constitutes intent.
And again, you carefully avoid the fact that there is no malpractice "crisis" that justifies what we've been pitched as "tort reform" while using phrases like "spiraling judgments" to falsely suggest there is. I can understand why you'd employ this approach--if, after all, you concede the truth--that there is no such "crisis"--it would follow that you'd have to be more honest about the motives of the "reformers" in this. It's much easier to spin fairy-tales.
Court is also where people go to see justice done. That can't be done when you insist on using the government to insulate butchers from the consequences of their actions.
"Economic damages" are just as amorphous as "non-economic damages." Juries--fellow Americans who have heard the facts of a case--make rational decisions, and such matters should be left in their hands.
If a jury judges a companies' behavior so offensive that it decides to grant so big an award that the company is banrkupted, then that company should be bankrupted. Juries make rational decisions; not a one has ever chosen to bankrupt a company like Pfizer.
Then I pity you.
That is where nearly all the money is paid. As of 2008, more than 80% of malpractice payments are for cases involving death or permanent debilitating injury.
justice vs. "fairness"
I think I see the problem.
You are confusing justice with "fairness".
In civil law, justice is about making people whole, as best as reasonably possible, from the point at which the violation occurred. So if a guy making $50K per year is irreversibly harmed such that he's no longer able to earn a living, then to make him "whole" would be to set him up for life with an annual income of $50K, perhaps with cost of living adjustments. Why? Because that would be what he was making at the time when the harm occurred. That would be making him whole. You're right, that this guy, had he not been harmed, might have invented some gizmo and become fabulously wealthy. He could have started his own business and quadrupled his income. (He also could have gone broke.) And it's not "fair" that, due to the negligent actions of others, he was never able to pursue his dreams. But no court can reverse time and undo the harm. No court, no power on earth, can impose this vision of "fairness" that you have. Even if this guy got pain and suffering damages of $2 bazillion, it would not have replaced the feeling of joy and satisfaction he might have achieved had he been able to invent the gizmo. It's not fair, and it never will be fair. Courts can't create fairness like this, NOBODY can. You seem to be advocating for something that can never happen, for courts to undo what has been irreversibly done.
So I am being the realist here. I am not asking civil courts to do the impossible.
Their fields or neighboring fields?
As far as insurance controversies are concerned, a doctor is an interested layman with lots of anecdotes and some out-of-context research ... much like an elementary schoolteacher discussing minor diseases.
Of course, if we're going to listen to experts...
Right. Becasue doctors aren't aware that even the smallest
practices have to hire one or two full time members of staff just to handle insurance company forms?
The NEJM took a survey of doctors and found that 7 out of 10 support the publc option. Of the more than 1,000 respondants who said they owned their own practice, 67.6% supported the public option.