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WSJ on the Economic Outlook
Submitted by John Smith on Wed, 11/25/2009 - 09:05
Consumer Spending Rebounds, as Jobless Claims Fall
Consumer spending and incomes rose in October, while initial jobless claims fell under 500,000 last week to the lowest level since September of 2008, boding well for economic growth in the fourth quarter.
Claims Data Help Futures
U.S. stock futures added to their prior gains Wednesday morning after reports showed last week's initial jobless claims fell by more than predicted and spending by Americans bounced by in October as their incomes rose slightly more than expected.


Comments
Break out the Champagne!
The economy is roaring back to life under the firm hand and visionary leadership of the Obama administration!
Oh wait . . .
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091124/D9C5UBSO2.html
May be 2011. . .?
Reality - its a bitch
Yes, Lonestar, it IS going to take a long time to fix the damage done to the economy by the Bush Administration. You can read more about it here. Money quote:
Does the name Mark Zandi sound familiar? You can read more about him at his RNC page. So don't bother with your tired "he's just a liberal elitist" BS.
Its amazing that you
Its amazing that you evidently thought the recession wouldn't end. They all do.
You probably haven't thought through what this massive debt that Obama and the Democrats have piled up is going to do to the recovery. And what the health care reform will do to it. And the role it will have in limiting job creation.
Checked the value of the dollar lately?
Tax the rich!
Its amazing that the markets
apparently did not think the recession would end, given that they were still dropping in March.
Your assertion that "recessions all end" - do you believe that Baby Jesus intervenes?
When did the recession that Hoover started end? Lets see, the crash was in October, 1929.....
Since my company exports, I'd like to see the dollar go lower still.
Recovery is nearly inevitable - Reid Care is a budget buster.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Damn-the-deficit_-Full-speed-...
Cap and trade would be another hit on the economy.
I agree that global warming is man made: Leaked Emails Confirm Global Warming Is a Deliberate Hoax
Recessions come along about
Recessions come along about every 5 years on average, and last a little over a year, on average. There have been 22 of them since 1900. All of them end. And to answer your question, no-Baby Jesus doesn't have to get involved.Its called the business cycle. You should look it up.
I can see why you thought this one would never end if you were only aware of the Great Depression and this recession. But if you study history a little you'll see that they all end and you'll also see that other than Obama and Rahm Emanuel, pretty much everyone was talking in terms of how to shorten the recession, not considering whether it would ever end.
But I see that you tow the Obama line, so I'm sure you believed him when he said this one was different and we had to spend billions and billions on Democrat pork in order to to end this particular recession (you should really listen when Rahm says "never wastse a crisis").
Funny, I haven't seen any articles in the WSJ
with the heading "Recession Ends Itself". However, even this Rupert Murdoch owned paper has conceded that it was Obama's policies that made the difference. link:
If you took economics 101, then you know that the concept of "business cycle" is a rhetorical shorthand, not some kind of rule or law. Because, if it were, as you should know, then it would create constant arbitrage opportunities that would annihilate it.
I didn't say that recessions
I didn't say that recessions end themselves. With over 100 years of data to look at, government should be able to take actions to shorten recessions. I'm saying we didn't need to spend $700 Billion on pork to get out of the recession, which was caused by Barney Frank and company as well as Democratic cesspools Fannie and Freddie.
Thats a pretty ignorant comment. However, if you want to be out there and on record as saying that you sincerely believed this recession would last forever because you can't read cyclical trends, be my guest . . .
I'll call my econ prof and tell him
you say he's an idiot. But seeing as he learned that business cycles are not deterministic from Milton Friedman himself, I doubt that he'll pay much notice.
Barney Frank caused the Bush recession? That's a new one. And very surprising, given that even Alan Greenspan says it was caused by, erh, Alan Greenspan....or, to be precise, Alan Greenspan plus the the entire Bush Administration and their delusion that markets did not need any regulating.
Given that you now concede that government can "shorten recessions", what should Obama have done that would have cost less and ended the recession sooner?
"markets did not need any regulating"???
Can someone please tell me, then, how Bush spent $20 Billion more inflation-adjusted dollars on REGULATION than Clinton spent on it?? And all this while allegedly "not regulating" them??? The fact that the biased news media calls such a fiscal failure "deregulation" is evidence of one thing: NewSpeak is the new language of the media. Failed regulation (such as attacking sound but politically-incorrect companies while ignoring Madoff's ponzi scheme) is not the same as deregulation, and real deregulation -- the kind where the taxpayers get charged LESS for once, has NOT been tried in my lifetime. I'm not young, either.
Tell your Econ Prof that the
Tell your Econ Prof that the business cycle doesn't exist and he'll tell you you're an idiot.
Milton Friedman on "the business cycle"
Read for yourself what Milton Friedman said about "the business cycle". Link. Highlight:
Or here is another link you could learn from.
So if I tell my fromer econ prof that the business cycle doesn't exist, he'll say "yes, I know, I studied with Milton Friedman, you idiot, why are you wasting my time?" So I guess you are right!
BTW, you forgot to provide your recipe that Obama should have followed that would have cost less and ended the recession sooner.
Another ignorant argument
You are into semantics at this point. There is a business cycle and if you want to take out of context quotes to pretend you are some sort of brilliant economist, again, be my guest.
I guess this data does not exist and the economy does not go through unpredictable periods of expansion and contraction that can be measured. Please let them know that ole Milton says they are wasting their time:
http://www.nber.org/cycles/
Obama should not have spent $700 billion on Demorcrat pork, bailed out Wall Street, and bought into GM and Chrysler.
I said I had taken an Econ 101 class
- stated it quite clearly, see above. If it makes you feel better you can keep on claiming that I am an idiot and ignorant, but I don't think you'll be fooling anyone.
This is anything but "semantics" - you are just claiming that in the hope of cutting off discussion.
You, in your comment, are making Friedman's point - a cycle is something like the seaons of the year. Given that the economy goes through unpredictable periods of expansion and contraction - your words - it is not a cycle. Instead, it is reactive. Give it a nasty shock - the 1973 oil crisis, the Bush Administration - and it goes into the crapper. Give it some juice - the stimulus bill, WWII - and it picks up again.
The NBER link you provided is just an illustration of the use of the phrase as a piece of linguistic shorthand, a possibility I also referenced above.
Think about it: if there was a deterministic business cycle in the sense that you are claiming, it would create perpetual arbitrage opportunities.
Q. Who bailed out Wall Street? A. George W. Bush.
It appears that your recipe would have been for Obama to do nothing. You keep on saying that the stimulus was wrong, but you've got not absolutely nothing to say about how the accelerating decline in the economy could have been halted without it. Except for this idea that it would have stopped itself, which is nonsense. Why did it stop it self when the stimulus money started to flow. Was it scared? Did it decided to join in a liberal plot to make Obama look good?
So your contention is that
So your contention is that the the concept of the business cycle is no longer in use and is no longer taught in colleges across America?
You say reality is a bitch. Apparently you have decided to make your own reality. Good luck with that!
You thiink Obama "looks good" on the economy? Hmmmm. I winder why his approval rating is dropping like a rock? If he "looks good" on the economy, it must be something else . . .
Hey drill baby Bill, gotta agree with ya, but not so fast
Indeed, unfortunately Bill's persception doesn't make John's reality. But then even a 40% approval rating on handling of economy is pretty good for a president in a bad economy. As Nate explains, "It's [Still] The Economy, Dumbass:"
:
Btw, did you ever contrast Reagan's job approval during his mini economic crisis to that of Obama's in far bigger crisis? It took Reagan two years for his numbers go beyong 30s and 40s! Here's a little lesson in history of presidential politics, before you prematurely celebrate your 2012 Kymer Beck, Rogue Palin ticket to disaster. Reagan's first term ratings from Gallup:
Interestingly Obama still does better than average compared to other presidents, not bad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating
The same with differences
The same, with differences.
My point is that the economy was bound to recover. Obama's fate was sealed (in terms of opinion polls) when he took over in January. Unemployed people are unhappy people (in terms of how they feel about politicians).
As compared to Reagan there are certainly similarities. But as the recovery begins, instaed of a landscape of business and individual friendly tax cuts and incentives, we have debt that is growing exponentially, a reengineering of one of the largest segments of our economy (with conflicting reports about the final cost), a steep drop in the value of the dollar and general uncertainty about what will come out of the White House next (cap and trade?).
Employers need to see some stability, and Obama's "flavor of the month" approach to the economy (and everything else-Afghanistan anyone?) is unsettling. Instead of creating confidence, Obama is creating chaos-and that is a problem for the economy.
Reagan had a clear vision and goal for the economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics
Whether you agreed with it or not, you knew what the intent was. Obama has no such clarity of thought or a plan. So anyhopes he may have of mirroring Reagan's 58% approval rating by the end of his first term are not good.
And you still have to deal
And you still have to deal with globalization. These are different times since Reagan. We have seen our jobs go overseas for over 30 years and it gets worse. And so far, no one has dealt with the issue.
And on your points.
1. Reagan never reduced spending
2. "Reduce income and capital gains tax" and we had 8 years of tax cuts and that solved no problems. It takes much more to run a country and not just ideology. And we need to pay for the war sometime. You can't have one party say reduce taxes if you want war. "Guns and butter" economics.
3. Reduce government regulation of the economy. PBS had a good piece in which the poor and middle class has been targeted by the credit card business. Lobbyists and lawyers run this country and the people are screwed.
FRONTLINE: the card game: introduction | PBS
4."control the money supply to reduce inflation" Yes, but you need to do a lot of things. Cut spending using commissions, have no more war unless you want to pay a war tax, get people back to work by dealing with globalization. Fix the country and its problems and stay away from no good lobbyists, lawyers, and useless ideology. And finally vote for a politician that does not go by party line, but one who is for America. Right now, no such politician exists.
Not the point
Can you summarize Obama's economic plan in 4-5 bullet points?
He's doing what people on
He's doing what people on the left are doing and we saw what people on the right do for 8 years. The country is in a mess. He may not be helping it all and I see nothing from the republicans. I do give him some slack for the simple fact, that the republican party is supposed to understand economics, and it is the republican party that is supposed to be best for our country and it has shown that that they are just a joke. It is a party filled with failed ideology. And it is a party filled with idiots like Rush Limbaugh and Shawn Hannity . So we saw the republican party for what they are and they are no better than the democrats.
Nice try
Nice try, Lonestar, but I'm sure everyone can see that you are just repeating yourself in order to save face.
Let's recap.
This all started with you claiming that "recessions all end" because of the "business cycle".
This indicates that you understand the business cycle not as a piece of linguistic shorthand, but as an ironclad rule. Like the seasons of the year. Winter ends, it always does, no action is necessary to make it end.
You are wrong. There is indeed a pattern or rhythm to economics, but it is not a deterministic cycle. Major recessions do not end themselves - they end when some externality has changed the conditions so that the actors in the economy feel confident about spending again.
Show me the story in the WSJ that says "Biggest Recession since the Great Depression Ends Itself".
Outside of Liberty University, colleges do not teach that our economy is a perpetual prosperity machine that, through the magic of the business cycle, corrects itself every time it jumps the rails.
Game ,set, match
Actually you were done when you said the market was concerned the recession would never end.
Now you studiously avoid my question about whether the concept of the businees cycle is still taught in colleges across America (hint: it is).
You're obsession with the definition of the word "cycle" is ridiculous. Let me help you:
You are now stuck with the absurd statement that something that is defined, studied, taught, and accepted throughout the businessand academic world does not exist.
Did you actually read what you just posted?
Did you actually read what you just posted? "do not follow a mechanical or predictable periodic pattern". Which is, of course, what you are arguing - GDP was up in the 3rd quarter not because of the stimulus but because "it was time" for the recession to end.
In three different places I have pointed out that the phrase "business cycle" is used, but as shorthand, not as a statement of immutable principles.
I have, in short, made it very clear that the problem is not with the phrase "business cycle", but with your misunderstanding of it - Baby Jesus, Adam Smith, The Invisible Hand et al do not automatically put the economy back on track after it has cratered.
Umm, lets see what people were saying in Q1:
And that is just a VERY small sample.
If, as you keep saying, it is common knowledge that the magic of the business cycle will correct the situation, why all this panic, gloom and doom? Money people WANT to project confidence in the market - because new money coming in makes their existing positions more valuable.
One last try
Lets see if I can put this in terms you can understand . . . ah, yes, the Business Cycle is "settled science". Expansion follows contraction. Always. If you would prefer to substitute the word."fluctuation" for "cycle" be my guest. But you are risking being labeled a "business cycle denier" and I'm sure you don't want that. Government action can influence the cycle, but really can't end recessions. If they could, there would be no recessions, get it?
None of your examples say "this recession will never end" they simply say "it hasn't ended" or "we don't know when it will end". When the market was low, many people, myself included, continued to but stocks. Why you ask? Why would you buy stock when no one knows if the recession will ever end? Well, Mr. Smith, we all know the recession will end. We don't know when it will end, but we know that recessions typically provide buying opportunities.It may take many years to show a decent return on those investments (you see even though the short term has been very good-hell great- we don't know if we're out of the woods yet and another dip is possible) So it was a pretty good bet to continue investing for the long term, because recessions come and recessions go. Because of the business cycle . . .
My "misunderstanding of the business cycle" has produced 50%+ returns.
The larger question here is will unemployment improve, or have Obamas actions poisoned the well? Will his reckless spending and health care reform make employers unwilling or unable to start hiring again?
Hah!
Hah! Have you noticed when the market and the LEIs started to move upward again? That's right....when the stimulus bill was passed.
And if we accept your boast, then that means that you also started buying right after the bill passed.
Happy days are here again!
Maybe not. and it's not like offshore is so promising.
Go ahead, trumpet the slow motion recovery . After all if unemployment was a reason to oust GW Bush in 2004, (when it was well under 6%) much worse unemployment will be a great reason to re-elect Obama in 2012
By the way, let's look under the hood of the amazing 2.8% GDP growth. All due to massive deficit spending and the application of Okun's law. If I go into hock with Cousin Luigi I might feel rich for awhile having a wad of Benjamin's in my wallet. And how am I going to feel when I'm asked to pay him back? There's no plan to do that. is there? I notice the Economist ain't buyin what you guys are sellin.
Classy Ironman
Classy Ironman, glad to see so many of his fellow American out of work, thinks it is hilarious that Obama has to clean up this mess that his party created.
When the Dow was declining, you thought that was the most important barometer. Why so silent on that topic as of late?
There is a huge difference between Bush I and Obama - Bush I followed Reagan, so the voters correctly understood that he represented the continuation of failed policies. If you think voters will have forgotten about Bush II in 2012, dream on.
Nice Economist article. Money quote:
Either a) you didn't read it before linking to it, or b) you've changed your position and you know agree that the stimulus was necessary. Which is it?
Nice try
I'm not happy about unemployment. But the fact the stimulus is making virtually no headway in addressing the problem is an "inconvenient truth" for the Left. Perhaps admitting the program isn;t working is the first part of a 12 step program for reforming Keynesians
Can't say I get the reasoning of the Economist. Perhaps they are still buying the "helicopter money" approach. I am told that less than 1/4 of the stimulus was spent already. In any event, IF you buy that in the 1Q "something" needed to be done to prop up demand, this was a rather poor way to do it.
It might hurt your preconceptions, but might a payroll tax holiday have more efficiently propped up consumer demand without ramping up the size of government? Of course, the problem here is that growing government---which will require massive out-year deficits and/or tax hikes---is a feature, not a bug, for the Obamatons.
Perhaps it is becasue
they actually understand economics at the Economist?
Re growing government and deficits: see the Reagan and Bush administration.
Trillion is larger than billion
Really, the $200 billion annual deficits Reagan used to finance the conclusion of the Cold War are going to look parsimonious compared to Obama's ocean of red ink.
John, since you are so brilliant, how we gonna pay off this debt? Unlike the Reagan deficits, which subsided after a time--even the likes of Paul Krugman aren't willing to claim we are going to grow our way out it this time.
Perhaps the problem is if we are subsidizing consumption with borrowed money we are not growing the productive capacity to service the debt. Which gets to why the "stimulus" is a short term--and ultimately quite expensive--palliative measure. And why seeing the cash wasted is angering the American public.
That ok, I'm sure some Keynesian will insist that massive debt is a wonderful thing. You would think what happened in Dubai might be a lesson, but you can't account for some things
All this dude knows is that when my old employer lent its money out, our underwriters made sure the property would generate enough net free cash flow to service the debt. Anyone doing an ROI analysis on the stimulus cash?...naw, that's only when a private firm spends a few million that they would do that sort of planning! Not the feds spending over a trillion when you add in the imputed debt service.
It isn't rocket science.
Increase income by returning to Clinton era tax rates and closing corporate tax loopholes and agressive action agains off-shore tax avoidance schemes.
Improve conditions for small businesses by dealing with the health care mess.
Let the dollar weaken further so that exports are more competitive and domestic goods are more attractive. It did wonders for Canada.
Curb spending through entitlement reform, ending the "war on drugs", eliminating the DHS, and cutting the defense budget.
"more competitive" ... you mean cost more.
Do you also favor price control for wages.
Here is a thought, why don't we just pass a law to reduce wages of everybody in the US by 10%. It will be us to the point you desire much faster.
On the topic of the Dow...
a) I'm glad the Obama crew finally displayed the minimal competence required to arrest the plunge in market sentiment that occurred immediately following the inauguration.
b) Once again, getting back to the 4000 point decline the market had in the days following the collapse of Lehman Brothers is not really cause for great cheer. Pension funds are now still seriously underfunded and the day of reckoning will be quite painful unless we return to Dow 14,000. Which the State of CT forecasts aren;t seeing in any real horizon. I hope they are wrong, but hey, they are professional economists.
c) The value of the Dow really hasn;t gone up much in relation to its value in foreign currency. Then again, perhaps Obama and Geithner want to explain why destroying the value of the dollar is a good thing for America. I'm all ears.
Here we go again.
Your CT-centric worldview is totally amusing. Here you say that economists from the state of CT must be correct, because they are professional economists. In your previous comment two inches higher you indicate that the professional economists at The Economist must be wrong...because you don't agree with them.
The Dow as at 14,000 in December, 2007. By October 08 it was below 8,000, So pretending the damage was done by Obama is just another transparently obvious attempt to blame him for a situation that the Republicans created.
When does The Economist expect Dow 14,000?
You agree with them on one point, and conveniently ignore the horse whipping they gave to every other element of Obamanomics.
On the aforementioned point, perhaps they are in accord with the State of CT. But again, you are the one telling us happy days are here again. And apart from some puffing WSJ headlines, there's no there there.
Horse whipping?
That's from the Economist, Nov. 13. I challenge you to show an article from The Economist that says that the current economic problems in this country are of Obama's making, and that his response to date has been wrong. In short, back up this horse-whipping claim of yours.
I suspect that you don't actually read the Economist, you just trawl it for what looks like criticism, then post it without reading it - see above.
If you did read it, you know that their theme is that now that the downward spiral that Bush started has been arrested, it is time to start thinking longer term - in particular, about deficit reduction. Which is something that the Obama Administration is already doing. And their other theme is that there is no magic bullet - this is going to take time and good management.
a trillion dollars a year in red ink until infinity
John, if you think that Obama is fiscally responsible, well I can get you some Dubai bonds real cheap.
I repeat my challenge.
I challenge you to show an article from The Economist that says that the current economic problems in this country are of Obama's making, and that his response to date has been wrong. In short, back up this horse-whipping claim of yours.
Ironman keeps moving, re-sizing and remaking the goal post.
John Simth wrote:
Ironman has a history of doing just the same. See comments in this thread:
http://www.thenextright.com/ironman/the-brilliance-of-nobel-laureate-pau...
One commenter summed it up perfectly:
From the same thread we get to know Ironman's argument by DOW - fallacy:
At least I'm not playing Fantasy Football
OK, how's that roaring recovery folks?
Hmm, Black Friday seems like it was pretty much, grey.
At the risk of being "CT-centric", what this means is sales tax revenue is also going to be flat. So the state is going to stay in the red. But , oops, I rely on that archaic concept called "observables" when I just should believe what some elite scholar or publication tells me is the "truth". (On that note, got any "hockey sticks"?)
Again, on the close to home and easy to check dept.,how's this aligned with all your ebullience
And geez, your guys get in, spook the crap out of the markets, vaporize a few trillion in market cap in their first weeks in office, and now actually getting the markets back to the condition they were AFTER the Lehman failure is a great achievement. It's like a physician being sued for malpractice asking the jury to ignore the coma the patient entered right after the procedure; he's now no worse than before.
Ta-Dah! Ironman unveils his newest completely
unreliable and pointless metric.
We are right where we were in early October 2008
Again, if returning to the market conditions we had AFTER Lehman Brothers failed is a "recovery", I can only say you are easily pleased.
If you think
the US economy could recover in a year from the massive clusterfuck that was the Bush Administration, I can only say you haven't been paying attention.
The Free Market has proven itself to be durable
While I agree that under Bush, we did not have free market policies for oil drilling. When the price of oil increased Bush maintained an executive order preventing exploration of new sources of oil.
And as cash flowed out of our economy in tankfuls of $3.00 plus gasoline the only rhetoric to come out of public policy was spend more money.
No Bush was not a free market libertarian. It is amazing that with all the restrictions the economy is still so strong.
None the less a free market always recovers. In a market were people are allowed to buy the service or product from who they choose, and anybody is able to provide a product or service. Innovation brings new products and services to the market.
The economy is not recovering as fast as the rhetoric you are posting suggests. The reason is not hard to understand. The Government does not have a magic source of money; It gets money either by taking it away from the private sector, by borrowing money, or by printing money. All three of which have a downside to the economy.
The Federal Reserve who have never once warned about the recession, never once suggested it would get worse ... their optimistic perception of recovery is 6.8 to 7.5 unemployment by 2012. http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomcminutes20091104ep.htm
The truth of the matter weather you believe it or not ... Government interference in free trade, new taxes on free trade, does not remove a recessioin.
And 8 years of tax cuts had
And 8 years of tax cuts had solved no problems, did not prevent a recession, and did not create prosperity. And we did not have government reacting to free trade in the form of investing in our country, in our people, and in the future. We are where we are. After 8 years the country is in a total mess. Of course the usual reaction from the right is not to do anything. So the next time the fire department is called, just tell them not to do anything.
So then low tax periods of US history were a mess?
The post World War II tax rates and not spending enough money is why Obama needs to spend money by the Trillions, is that what you are intending so say? Then is middle east war the saving grace of the economy under Bush? Which hired and saved the Jobs of 1000s of soldiers.
War is a poor excuse for
War is a poor excuse for jobs. And it cost 1 trillion dollars and a lot of lives. What has not been done is investing in our country, in our people, and in the future. It was just tax cuts and nothing else. Low tax periods are for the here and now. It did nothing for the future. You had your roaring 20's and today we pay the price. I saw jobs leave while Bush was in office. It wasn't great under Bush in Ohio. Only on Wall Street. We have globalization and you can't ignore what is happening to our country and middle class.
Post WWII is post Dec 7th, 1941
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/legislation/1940.cfm Personal exemption at that time was $2,000 you could buy a house for that amount of money in 1940. The average income in 1940 was $1725.00 http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1940s.html
The average income in 2008 is $50,233.00 ... If we had the same structure for taxation today as in 1940s nobody earning less than $50,000 would be paying tax. For a family of 4 ...
We pay more in taxes today than we did through the bulk of the cold war because the dropping value of the dollar sooner or later creates inflation and for a person to remain at the same prosperity level they need to pay out higher rates of tax.
Your worried about taxes and
Your worried about taxes and I am worried about jobs. Something has to give. We have sent our jobs overseas, our money to Iraq, and neglected the infrastructure. And if you are worried about how much money people have, people are losing their jobs. And if they find another job, then it pays less than what they had. This is caused by globalization and cheap labor competition. Everyone I know, is just barely hanging on and/or losing their job. This is caused by years of neglect on our country and globalization. This is not loss jobs of a recession, it is loss jobs of globalization.
I am for more taxes in China
I just don't see taxes as creating jobs. I see it as a burden that takes money out of the pockets of your average Joe. I do not care how high taxes go there will never be a point where increasing taxes reduces the cost of labor.
"Everyone I know, is just barely hanging on and/or losing their job." If this is your way of saying that to date the Obama policies have not produced fruit - I am in agreement. But I do not believe Simuless 2.0 would do any better.
We need to ask small business people what they need to get on their feet and employ other people. It takes more than 1 million people matching in Washington to get Obama's Attention and nobody he listens to has as much experience as say somebody who posts on this site.