And so it begins

Ask not what your country can do for you.  Ask what you can do for your country.   But you may not have a choice in the matter.

Well, this is interesting.  Greg Mankiw found Obama's President-Elect transition website endorsing a (non-military) draft.   Here's the text as it originally appeared when he found it.

That was very quickly swept under the rug (but not out of the cache).  Here's what it looks like now...

That's Change you'd better hope you can believe in! 

UPDATE

A reader points out that the entire Agenda section has been taken down. There's still an Agenda page, but all of the sub-pages are...gone.   The Agenda page says, "The Obama Administration has a comprehensive and detailed agenda to carry out its policies".  

However, the actual policy areas themselves come up "Not Found".  That's probably a metaphor for something.

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Comments

You need to do something pretty bad in CT these days

to get ordered to do 100 hours of community service

I was drafted in 1966. 

I was drafted in 1966.  Obviously I didn't get killed in Vietnam, but a lot of my fellow draftees did.

I don't have a problem with requring of others what was required of me.

Do you?

Yes.

If government imprisoned me unjustly, I would have a problem with them doing it to you, too.

Yes, I do have a problem with

Yes, I do have a problem with that. 

"They did it to me" is not a good reason to force servitude on other people.  That line of reasoning does not distinguish between justified and unjustified policies.

"forced servitude" is a highly partisan interpretation of

a proposal that deserves broad support.  Revising the wording from from "requiring " to  "setting a goal"  is already an improvement in a  small detail  of  its development.  Is there no possible implementation of this type of program that you would support?   

As the parent of both middle school and high school age children, it's easy for me to imagine a program that I would strongly support.   I see fed govt providing leadership and small amt of funding to develop resources for communities to develop this proposal in their own ways.  As program  implementation  could require significant $ to pay coordinators/ supervisors of volunteer opportunities to youth,  it would make sense to train college students  to act  in this role to fulfil their community service requirements (in exchange for tuition assistance)

I believe volunteering/community service is a value shared by both liberals and conservatives and as a busy parent I would appreciate govt leadership and support in facilitating opportunities for my children  to participate.  Just  reflecting on the proposal has given a boost to my motivation to start seriously thinking about a community based tutoring program that I could help coordinate through a local church,  given my strong background in remedial education.  I thought conservatives supported improving education without greater funding, which seems one likely outcome from a nation more highly engage in community service.

One reason I read this site is to look for common ground and check the response from the right for the possibility of bipartisan solutions to the challenges facing the country.  At this moment my hope has lessoned  that it might be found at the level of  regular citizens  (even if not in the halls of congress where increasing power is the primary goal) 

O RLY?

You were drafted in middle school?  Or was it high school?

I was once mugged in the dark by thugs

I don't have a problem with requring of others what was required of me.

I was once mugged in the dark by thugs. Should I not have a problem if the mugging happened to you as well, since it happened to me?

And BTW, thank you for your service to our country.

This is why the GOP must get...

...its act together and quick.  This sort of thing is not going to go away.  Its a seed planted.  Eventually they'll need someone to go around search peoples home, find and collect the guns and ammunition.  What we're seeing here is tentative plans for  "brown shirt" enforcers.  In its infancy. 

Conservatives keep talking about 2012.  We can't leave these radicals in charge for 4 years! They'll make a total train wreck of  things.  We need to take back either the House, the Senate or both in 2010Thats less than 2 years.  Those movers/shakers w/in the GOP that I've listened to over the past 3 1/2 days seem clueless.  Same worn out  boring  rhetoric that McCain was continuously mouthing.  DD 

Yes - focus on the agenda NOW, and on 2010

We need to take back either the House, the Senate or both in 2010Thats less than 2 years.  Those movers/shakers w/in the GOP that I've listened to over the past 3 1/2 days seem clueless.  Same worn out  boring  rhetoric that McCain was continuously mouthing. 

YUP. We have to fight the Obama agenda NOW, not wait for them to pass it unchallenged.

Let every controversial bill go through the same guntlet that immigration amnesty went through.... phone line meltdown.

Go here:

http://rebuildtheparty.com/

Add your ideas ... and then send those ideas to the county and state chairs and RNC committee folks.

If you dont have their emails, seek them out.

Bashing it into their skull will eventually work ... I hope.

My ideas are here:

http://travismonitor.blogspot.com/

 

What's the problem?

I don't really see how, in the abstract, requiring young people to serve their country is a bad thing.  Having kids in middle school work for Habitat for Humanity or the like doesn't really seem so bad.  I think the bigger problem would be in execution - if only left wing organizations (like ACORN) are getting help, and the youth are being indoctrinated, then we would have a problem. 

Several reasons it's a problem

First of all it's a problem Constitutionally - that whole 13th Amendment "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

If what was originally proposed isn't involuntary servitude I'm not sure what is.

Second it's a problem morally. The whole moral value of service isn't that it's service, the value is that it is action voluntarily undertaken. If the government requires people to do service there ceases to be a moral benefit (and if you claim it is then you're also making the claim it is morally goos when criminals do mandated service and all that is required to be a good person is not breaking the rules).

Third it's a problem economically. It takes people out of the work force to some degree, keeping them from engaging in the wealth generating activities that drive the economy. And on top of that that work is not just being directed away from work creation but it would likely be channeled into directions controlled by the government. What was the last thing a bureaucrat managed well?

1,2,3.

First, children already go to school "involuntarily," and I filled out my Selective Service card "involuntarily". Adding more requirements that a child must meet to graduate from public school seems more like a matter of degree to me.

Second, while I'm sure many people, if not all, volunteer to get the warm fuzzies, that isn't where the value of service comes from. Criminals hate doing community service I'm sure, but their actions (the community service, not the crime) still provide a benefit to the community and public life. The idea is in fact to reimburse the society in relation to the harm you did it through crime. Now by no means are children guilty of any crime that would require community service, but adding 50-100 hours to an occupation that already takes on average 13,320 hours of their life seems fairly inconsequential.

 Third, volunteering isn't a zero sum game. While hours spent volunteering generates less wealth versus those same hours working, they still add value to the society at large, even if it is a smaller amount. Conversely, if parents knew their children would be occupied after school doing volunteer work organized by the school, they might be able to spend that extra time at work which would help "drive the economy".

Q: "What was the last thing a bureaucrat managed well?"

A: The Post Office, the Armed Forces, and a large majority of Americas' municipal water supplies. To name three.

Some points in response

Point 1: It's not the federal government's job to set graduation requirements, that's always been the domain of state governments and local school boards.

Point 2: Where did I ever indicate support for the Selective Service. I think it's just as problematic.

Point 3: The moral value of service hs nothing to do with getting "warm fuzzies." It's about choosing, of your own free will, to help another. When that service is coerced its carrying out becomes a morally neutral act. Furthermore, it denigrates the idea of service itself and insults all people by suggesting the only way to ensure service happens is by coercion. Even Obama's tamer proposal carries the same degradation and insult by suggesting a bribe is necessary to get people to help others.

Point 4: Point taken, it may not be zero sum, but in the end it is still less efficient overall.

Point 5: The U.S. Postal Service is a hopelessly archaic institution dieing a slow death. The Armed Forces spend thousands of dollars for a single toilet seat. And clearly you've never been to Queen Anne's County, MD - the water system is horrifically managed and planned by county bureaucrats.

Response

1: This is a good point which I had overlooked. Now, what if this was a program that states could opt in to, and if they did so would receive extra federal funding for schools. Would you be opposed to this proposal?

2: You're right, it really isn't pertinent to this topic, I was mostly just using it for color.

3: I'm not sure why you're hung up on the "morality" of volunteer work. I'm not even sure what you mean by "morally neutral." If it's still a benefit to the society overall, it is a moral good. The only way it could be "morally neutral" is if it did the exact same amount of harm as good for society. This is the whole idea behind community service for criminals. Their criminal act cost the society in real expressible terms, and the community service is an attempt to reimburse society for the value he destroyed.

Now when you say it degrades it, you mean it degrades people's perception of it. We're both guessing about what it would do to people's perceptions of volunteer service, but I could just as easily say that it would improve the dignity of such work, and improve people's opinions of it. Neither of us will know the truth unless this thing comes to be.

5: I'm not really a fan of this point, considering it is entirely anecdotal, but I'll go ahead and address each line in turn.

The U.S.P.S. has comparable rates of delivery success to UPS & Fed-Ex, does it for cheaper, and is not, in fact, subsidized by the govt., it runs solely of profits made from postal delivery. It also happens to be the biggest employer in the U.S. after WAL-MART. Also, I can send a pound of tobacco from Brenham, TX to Camp Hansen, Okinawa, Japan for $4.80,  have it get there in five days, and be in fine condition.

The Armed Forces are surely not as efficient as they could be, but are you seriously proposing that we move to privatize the military? For full disclosure, I happen to be in the U.S.M.C. and for the most part my experience with services in the military that have been privatized have been negative.

You should come to Houston, TX where the local Anheuser-Busch, and Coca-Cola plants use municipal water for their products, the water is rated some of the best in the state, and I only have to pay a penny for a whole gallon of the stuff.

Response

1. I would still be opposed. There shouldn't be any federal involvement in education. He who takes the king's shilling plays the king's tune. It's bad enough states are able to dictate curricula, the more that schools rely upon federal funding the worse the problem of distant bureaucrats dictating education becomes.

2. It seems the fundamental problem here is one of approach. You're looking at this as a purely utilitarian question. But it strikes me the more appropriate concern is what I suppose might be considered a Kantian one.

Basically, if we assume that people have a certain set of rights we can establish the honoring of those rights as a baseline. For example theft. We all agree that it is immoral to steal from someone. But is someone exhibiting good morality because they don't steal? I argue not, this is simply the minimum standard of behaviour - hence it is morally neutral. To be morally good an act has to willingly exceed the baseline of behaviour while not violating any other baselines. In our example giving money to charity. You are going beyond the baseline to help others out of your own free will while not infringing on anyone else's rights.

Now then, in the case of mandated service it alters the dynamic by taking choice out of the equation. No longer is the helping others an act of free will. And since it is the law, it makes it impossible to tell if someone is doing it to exceed the baseline of minimum required behaviour or if they are doing it out of genuine conviction. Thus the moral component is removed.

3. The degradation of service was in no way a comment on potential perceptions of it, it was a philosophic statement on the nature of service and its relationship to human nature. As explained above, service is only commendable when it is voluntary because it is going beyond the basic requirements of participating in society. When it becomes mandatory it ceases to be a moral good.

Meanwhile the fact that it is voluntary and still happens speaks volumes of the human nature. it indicates we are kind, compassionate, and capable of good without the need for prodding. However if it we feel the need to mandate or bribe people into it then we are suggesting that human nature is fundamentally bad and we can only do what was once considered good if we are made to with either a stick or a carrot.

I like to believe humanity is better than that and that history supports that belief. But apparently the progressive left disagrees with me. Makes me wonder about that "Yes, we can" spirit though.

Riposte

1: Fair enough. While I do not wholly agree with the statement I recognize it as a reasonable view of the relationship between the state and education.

2: You're correct that I'm viewing this almost wholly from a utilitarian standpoint, and while I appreciate your Kantian perspective (though I admittedly am not a well informed student of Kant) I still think that the most pertinent measure of worth for this initiative is not whether we degrade or bolster the image or reality of service, but whether or not this will add more or less value to society. We may perhaps strip the moral imperative of community service then, but I argue it would be worth the value that would be added to society. Everyone recognizes that donating blood is a moral good, as well as a valuable service to society. I sense that making it mandatory for all those that could give would diminish neither aspect of giving blood, either the moral or the value.

3: It could be said that our better human nature has already succeeded, because we recognize service as a good, and so would mandate that all children participate in it. The existence of the draft during WWII did nothing to damper the moral good of serving in the military during that war.

But what of the dangers

But what of the dangers inherent in a utilitarian approach. After all, that was effectively the moral justification used by the eugenics advocates in the 30's-40's.

If we only consider the aggregate societal good and not the moral right of individuals to be free from coercion you can easily end up in some pretty unsavory positions.

I'm not saying the utilitarian perspective is necessarily wrong, sometimes it's useful, but it's got some potentially dangerous implications as a guide to government policy.

Thank You

You make a good point, we should always be wary of the slippery slope. I suppose it would be easy enough to find examples of government compulsion being used for both good and evil (I imagine evil would have a longer list). I think in this particular instance we have little to fear, but I do respect your aversion to any kind of government compulsion.

And BTW, thank you for taking the time to have this erudite conversation with me.

at least our selective service

is for a limited time, and the soldiers get to return home. in russia, this wasn't always the case...

R.I.P. Yakov Smirnoff

This community service program is also only for a limited time.

wealth generation comes from productivity improvements

which can easily be generated by kids working on computer related activities.

trust me, open source works!!

Obama's daft draft - devil in the details

I don't really see how, in the abstract, requiring young people to serve their country is a bad thing.  Having kids in middle school work for Habitat for Humanity or the like doesn't really seem so bad.

Having? No. its FORCING with the FORCE of Federal law! Replacing dictators with democracies is a great idea too, in the abstract.

The question is what level of force are you going to require to make it happen for 50 million kids in America.

Obama will trample on school authority, school board graduation requirements, state level reqts, all in the name of a stupid and inconsequential idea. Not to mention the involuntary servitude of children and the loss of parental rights as well.

Devil is always in the execution.

I think the bigger problem would be in execution - if only left wing organizations (like ACORN) are getting help, and the youth are being indoctrinated, then we would have a problem.

DUH ... THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF IT! PLEASE DONT BE NAIVE AND GULLIBLE AND GIVE OBAMA ALL THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT WHILE THE GRIFTER IS CONNING US ALL OUT OF OUR FREEDOM!

I mean c'mon how stupid do you have to be to NOT see this as a sincere effort at raising up the next generation to be less likely to join the capitalist world and more likely to join the leftwing NGO/activist/govt-union complex.

Several problems

As a number of people have suggested it is the REQUIRED part I have trouble with.  If we're going to required something of our secondary school kids how about 100 extra hours a year in a quiet room (no ipod, cell phone, TV, etc) studying math, reading about the histroy of our country, whatever.

There's really no shortage of opportunities for community service type of activities already out there (Scouting, 4H, church activities, just to name a few).  I fear that your're probably right in that the "accepted" form of service might be comopletely hijacked by the left.  There's little doubt in my mind that scouting wouldn't qualify.

I'm glad the coming Obama

I'm glad the coming Obama administration is taking the time out of their busy schedule to force me to make time in my busy schedule.

Expect the youth vote to swing Republican if they manage to start such mandatory programs.

Editorial fine tuning on a 3 day old web site

What a scoop.  Maybe we should organize into shifts so that someone is always awake watching them.   We don't want them slipping something by us.  Is having kids step away from the T.V. or video game one or two hours a week such a terrible thing?

Obama's daft draft is a fatuous and totalitarian idea

Is having kids step away from the T.V. or video game one or two hours a week such a terrible thing?

What an arrogant comment. Do you have kids? If so, speak about your own. If not, dont presume.  my kids dont watch that much TV,ie, no TV at all during weekdays(!) and they are too busy on religious education, music (piano and other), homework, extra reading and learning, boy scouts, sports, and helping with chores, to have to WASTE THEIR TIME ON GETTING INDOCTRINATED TO BE COMMUNITY ACTIVISTS. It's a big fat horrible stupid anti-freedom anti-education idea that should be killed now.

Voluntary charity service? Sure, we encouarge it; my duaghter is volunteering for something tomorrow and is in NJHS which has a service component ... but its VOLUNTARY, based on good old-fashioned American concepts of family, morality and liberty; not on Obama's socialistic concepts of ordering everything and everyone around from a central Government dictat.

As a parent I am appalled, utterly appalled, that our education dollars and energies would be wasted on such a fatuous and totalitarian idea.

 

Do a good turn daily

Agreed,  I made a comment speaking to the majority of children.  You should get your kids out of Boy Scouts.  BSA advocates ... wait for it ....  COMMUNITY ACTIVISM.  You know, helping elderly people across streets,  that kind of stuff.  And yes,  I have kids.  I just don't overschedule their time.  They're kids.

So much for "country first" eh?

I'm really not sure where there Party of Patriotism [sic] draws the line between requiring its able-bodied young men to register with the Selective Service to go die in ridiculously mistaken wars and requiring its young people to perform some kind of domestic community service.  Granted, I don't think I like the idea of mandatory community service much more than you do, Jon, but I also don't affiliate with the party that accuses people of being less American if they don't wear a goddamn flag pin and pay lip service to our troops.  I just don't understand how liberals have ceded the patriotism meme to the Right when all the Right does is *talk* "country first" but cries bloody murder once it's actually a requirement.  I filled out my Selective Service form 16 years ago without excessive griping, so what's the problem with this?

Sure, a "required" amount of service is unseemly and Big Brother-y, but this country wouldn't get very far if everything were voluntary.  Requiring tax payments from citizens is a burden as well, but do you think even a bare-bones Nordquist-dream government could successfully operate quarter to quarter if it had to rely on voluntary donations from concerned citizens like some kind of NPR pledge drive? Ha!  Joe the Plumber would be hoarding his cash while our bridges collapsed and AWACS planes fell out of the sky.

There's got to be some kind of middle ground between community service conscription and the Right's "on your own society" (i.e. any national advancement would be fortuitous happenstance) that we could all live with, no? 

Duh.

Middle School and High School.  RTFA, please. 

I know it's hard to pay attention when you just want to rant about eeeeevil Republicans, but really, it's not that hard. 

Nobody's conscripting MY child.  Maybe you think it's okay to force kids to "serve their country," though.  Hitler Obama Youth, I guess.  Or maybe it's just Obama's Little Urban Achievers. 

 Wow - so now Obama is

 Wow - so now Obama is Hitler?  That's a wonderful leap of logic.  Requiring one hour of community service a week for our young people is obviously the first step down the path to ethnic cleansing.

While it would be wonderful if things could get done in this country through volunteerism and donations, that just isn't going to work.  The whole point of having a govenment is so that people will be forced to contribute to the common good, usually in the form of infrastructure and defense.  As someone who volunteered all throughout high school, and now in college, I see no problem in trying to instill the value of patriotism and service to others in our children.

So please don't screech about conscription and Nazis; you're bringing the quality of discussion down.

Hitler?

You know, the state of Israel has a mandatory 3-year military service for everyone in the country. Are they like Hitler, too?

excuse me, but this is absolutely wrong.

a mandatory service requirement exists, but it does not need to be military service. Many people do other forms of community service, particularly the religiously orthodox.

Glad to clear up your misperception!

hmmm

 The exemption for the religiously orthodox is just that.. a special exemption. It is required military service for most of the citizens.

Either way, it is forced service and far more drastic than Obama's plan. So my original question stands.

 

 

it does indeed! just trying to keep everything

on the up and up around here.

this liberal likes facts ;-)

WE HAVE A VOLUNTEER MILITARY

I'm really not sure where there Party of Patriotism [sic] draws the line between requiring its able-bodied young men to register with the Selective Service to go die in ridiculously mistaken wars and requiring its young people to perform some kind of domestic community service.

Hey moron - WE HAVE A VOLUNTEER MILITARY. Nobody is required to sign up.

Nobody on the Republican side is calling for the draft to come back.

A draft for community service is completely and utterly unnecessary. The draft is daft!

There's got to be some kind of middle ground between community service conscription and the Right's "on your own society"

Your problem is clearly that you believe your own lies. There is not "on your own" society - there is individual freedom and responsibility and our common community where with VOLUNTARY charity efforts we help those less fortunate. that middle ground is the truthful ground that the Right occupies. The 'thousand points of light' and little platoons of compassionate conservatism. Republicans are more generous with their charity than Democrats. Nobody is forcing Obama to take care of his indigent aunt ... but nobody is stopping him either. Is Obama's aunt part of Obama's "On your own" plan? A Republican wouldnt be as cruel to his own family members as Obama is!!

Response to Shelbinator

I'm really not sure where there Party of Patriotism [sic] draws the line between requiring its able-bodied young men to register with the Selective Service to go die in ridiculously mistaken wars and requiring its young people to perform some kind of domestic community service.

Leaving aside the merits of any given war (since that's an orthogonal issue), the line should be drawn at individual choice.  You can choose to join the military, but can you choose to participate in mandatory universal service?  

Granted, I don't think I like the idea of mandatory community service much more than you do, Jon, but I also don't affiliate with the party that accuses people of being less American if they don't wear a goddamn flag pin and pay lip service to our troops.  

But you do affiliate with the party that accuses their political opponents of being unpatriotic on a regular basis.  (note that you're mostly referring to people on the internet and a few talk radio hosts; I'm referring to elected and party officials)

I just don't understand how liberals have ceded the patriotism meme to the Right when all the Right does is *talk* "country first" but cries bloody murder once it's actually a requirement.  

Yeah, I think the "patriotism" attack is kinda dumb.  I haven't made it, though, so you should probably argue with somebody who does.

 

Obama's community service draft is daft!

Fight the community service draft!

This is an assault on parental rights and on children and a denigration of the key things that we need to do in schools. You know, like actually LEARN academic subjects so we can compete in the world!

It is also an utter and absolute attack on Federalism and the rights of states, school board and local communities to decide these things. Obama is running roughshod over everyone and every thing.

STOP OBAMA'S SOCIALISM!

 

Shelbinator is a bit bitchy,

Shelbinator is a bit bitchy, methinks. Maybe you can pull my 100 hours in the Obama Young Pioneers, Shelb. I have a disabled mother to care for and school to worry about. I really don't have time to clean up heroine needles at the park or bribe the homeless with booze for their vote.

So what is the problem, specifically, Jon?

Is it the involuntary nature of the act that is what gets you? Because we do alot of things involuntarily in this country that a lot of people don't like. One of the more convincing arguments stated here is that it takes rights away from the parent, but truancy laws already do a good job of that and no one seems to complain much.If parents were given the option to have thier children opt out of community service, much like they have the option now of keeping them out of sex-ed/health classes, would you still have the same issue?

I'm going to burn my

I'm going to burn my community service time-sheet. Questioning authority, man. Questioning authority. Dissent is patriotic!

Does this mean

you guys are now against forcing kids to go to school?

 

I mean how can we really force them to go to school for 12 years if they dont want too!

and what about making kids get shots if they don't want too!

 

so because kids are going to learn in school that is right to serve your community you guys compare it to slavery?

I hope you all admit we must stop forcing people to go through 12 years of being dragged from their home, bussed and locked in buildings 5 days a week for 12 years because someone says they have to for their own good.

Apparaently we don't believe anymore that yes there are some things kids will be forced to do because they don't know better and in the long run its better for everyone else.

 

but I guess a high schooler reing required to serve their community for 100 hrs is terrible, I mean my wife to be a confirmed catholic had to do community serivce and you should see the Protects that Catholics had at the thought of the Church REQUIRING people serve their community before they could be confirmed Catholics!

This is cool!

Will  the middle school kids get little uniforms? They would look so cute!

And I hope they start every "volunteer" session with a catchy song praising our leader and The Party!

 

 

so are you saying

you are against schools that have mandatory uniforms?

 

Wasn't this something you guys were saying that needed to be changed? what is wrong with requring a child to serve 1 hr in their community to learn that we all have a responsibility ourselves to take care of our community.

 

I guess the basic question is this, Does the GOP belive there are such things as Civic Duties?

and is Community Service a Civic Duty?

and if so, why are your principals against requiring children to learn about their civic duty?

I know lots of schools that require community service for things like scholarships, to aid, and some are just apart of class curriculms, is it wrong to require community service for a grade?

 

Seems to me the Next Right is going to go down the same paths as the Old Right, in some form already we already have required uniforms in places, we already require community service in many forms, but when we want to expand it and teach people that its YOUR duty to take care of your community not your government, you guys balk.

So then its back to the government fixing all communities.

 

(I know I know, you guys will say people will choose to do it, Kinda like Wallstreet execs choose not to do stupid things that would lead to a financial melt down, all we have to do is get the government out of the way and people will make the right deicisions because of market forces right?)

Wow

Here is where you don't get it (how you took that to be a comment against schools that require uniforms is beyond me, I went to them all my life):

Joining the Catholic church and being required to do community service is a CHOICE.

Going to a school that has a mandatory uniform is a CHOICE.

Raising my kids the way I want to is a CHOICE.

And the government can stay out of it. I will determine when, where, and for how long my kids will volunteer. It will be in organizations that I see value in, not that the government requires.

Our country is here because people wanted freedom to govern their own lives. This proposal is an insulting, arrogant intrusion.

As for the financial meltdown, it was triggered by Fannie and Freddie going under because the government MANDATED that they make loans to people who can't repay. And the number two reciever of donations from Fannie and Freddie was ----OBAMA. Good intentions. Bad results.

 

oh, look, it doesn't agree with my ideology!

let's spout some stupid bullshit instead! then everyone will have to agree with me!

Yay free money! Free money is good! no interest on loans!

... y'all do support being able to take out a 10 million dollar loan on 100,000, don't you?

Yay derivatives!

Yay everything that's a fucking problem because it really isn't except for Fanny mae!

Yay Rand! Yay objectivism! Yay Alan Fucking Greenspan!

School Uniforms

you are against schools that have mandatory uniforms?

Putting aside your logical fallacy of false parallelism ...

Its too vague. What specific school uniform policy do you refer to? Share a link so we know what you are referring to. Is it a school policy, district policy, state policy or Federal?
Most districts have their own policy. Sometimes the dress policy is very loose. Few public schools have real uniforms. So you are apparently bringing up a red herring (and private schools dont count, they are 100% voluntary, nobody is required to attend one).

It is absolutely NUTTY to think we should make a Federal policy out of something far more appropriately decided at the local level. That holds for school uniforms or for indentured community servitude. No way and no how should the Federal Govt be dictating this to all 50 states.

 

 

Involuntary Servitude

Can you freaking believe the federal government forces children to attend schools? Insane. It is not in the constitution. Can you also believe they force me to pay taxes to build those same educational prisons? I don't think that requirement is in the constitution. Can you believe that folks want to start focusing on the greater good rather than narrow individual self-interest. Republicans have a tremendous opportunity here. Selfishness sells. It has been a core value of the party for the last 20 years. Community service- let the Democrats own that message for the next 20 years..we'll see how far that gets them.

What if I think my 6th grader and high schooler

already do enough volunteer work through church and school?

It's terrific you make time and find opportunities for your kids

Many  people (like me) have kids the same ages who could do more with  a greater focus and more opportunities provided by the community.  I envision  that perhaps schools could provide tracking and recognition for the volunteer hours kids are completing and churches and other community groups (scouting, Lions, etc) could provide more opportunities for kids to contribute. I think Obama's proposal is a good idea for the many families that could do more and especially for college age students in exchange for tuition assistance.

Hey I think it's great

to give college money in exchange for service. I think thats where is should start. Let us raise the kids and instill our values. If our kids then want government money to go to school and the government requires community service to get it, why not?