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Torture Dialogue & Awareness
Submitted by lastrain on Sun, 05/03/2009 - 23:44
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this is not a subsidiary of Daily Kos
I refuse to visit Daily Kos. If you have an argument to make regarding torture, make it here on this blog.
I haven't noticed the gun pointing to your head
Anyway, this also demonstrates that any argument, from a Kossack (and a Next Righter) like me, that doesn't agree with your partisan views would never enter into your emotionally intolerant Thick Skull of liberal hating, daily kos detesting head.
Open Left (Bower's quote about conservative stereotypes of which you whined about) , MyDD and Swing State Project are supposed to be good lefty blogs according to the Next Right editors. Daily Kos is no more extremist than those three blogs. I would say it is even, less liberal. In fact, it is the size, diversity and influence (and oft times excellent content, umatched in community blogosphere) of dkos that makes it a prime target for the conservatives. As such, the word liberal has been demonized by the right wing, leading many people to dislike the word regardless of whether their views are actually liberal. It is no surprise that partisan numskulls like Chemjeff continue to use the word "liberal" in that sense at the Next Right(Right's version of Daily Kos in many ways.)
PS. Btw, the entry link is not to a dkos opinion piece, but to a commendable, current collection of relavant mainstream sources on torture dialogue. If you don't even want to hear to the other side of opinion once in a while, you are welcome to bury your head in sand just like your party establishment.
daily kos
No, as much as you want to believe that, it's not true. No I particularly don't like Daily Kos. And it is less because of its liberal bias and more because the trashy demeanor of the commenters there. The few times I did visit there, it was nothing but endless Bush bashing. The place makes me sick and does nothing for me but raise my blood pressure. And it is BECAUSE I respect rational discourse that I won't go to trashy gutter places like that.
But don't worry, if current trends keep up, this blog really will become a subsidiary of Daily Kos, finally driving me out for good. Then you will be safe from my dangerous opinions.
If you think I am just a partisan hack, then you haven't hung around here long enough. I am first and foremost a conservative, not a Republican. I don't hate liberals, and I don't even dislike liberalism per se. I absolutely detest collectivism, though.
Again, if you have an argument to make, make it. I am conversing with you, not the authors of those 40 opinion pieces.
I am first and foremost a
Guess that's why you wrongly refered to Bower's "consevative" steroetypes as "republican" sterotypes.
Can't blame you. Conservatives loved Bush for most part. The Kos crowd never bought into 911-Iraq-WMD argument loved by the conservatives then. The debate on that is settled now. (I don't think libs and conservatives have much differences on Bush now though. )
I understand you had some bad exeperiences and it had wounded you emotionally. But get a grip. There is nothing wrong in reading good diaries skipping the comments if you think they still make you sick (long after the fallen King has left.) Daily Kos is not a monolithic blog like say a RedState, there are people with diverse opinions on several issues. They disagree, they argue and I have a civilized discussion, of course it gets heated sometimes when so many people tune in but the S/N ratio is quiet good for a political blog. It is a progressive blog, but you can expect Obama administration's criticism and find many religious conservatives and ibertarians (and of course former republicans and conservatives) expressing their opinions and acknowleged by the community as well.
It looks like your mind is made up and you think you have all the information you need to make your case. That's why I titled this thread as "Dialogue" and not a debate. It is upto you to read the information and opinions that might help further your awareness on the issue. I was impressed with the information I linked to (sure, it could have a liberal bias, but it doesn't invalidate everything.) It is just a recommendation, and I am sure anyone who reads, especially non-partisans at Next Right, will be further enriched on the torture dialogue.
Chemjeff, the cool(oppurtunist) conservative
Yeah, being a partisan hack of the republican establishment and their conservative agenda is no longer a popular option, but being a Bush apologist was unfortunately the only option for conservatives for at least the first 6 years of his administration.
rational discourse?
When you visited Dkos, what did you expect rational discourse on? What kind of arguments did you make?
There isn't two sides to every argument. Sometimes, there is just right or wrong. There's this need to have a debate when there isn't always a debate. There's truth, or denial.
intellectual and moral development
You have much to learn, young grasshopper.
A good friend of mine once told me that there are three stages to a person's moral and intellectual development. Stage One is when you view the world purely in black/white terms. Everything is either right or wrong. There is absolutely no grey area, and to admit as much is a clear sign of apostasy. Stage Two is when you really do grasp the greyness of the world we live in, and your entire black/white paradigm is thrown into complete confusion. You then begin to view the world ENTIRELY as grey. There is no right or wrong at all. Everything is justifiable, and to deny it is to demonstrate one's intolerance. Finally, Stage Three is when you begin to set reasonable boundaries between the absolute rights and wrongs of the world and the more difficult shades of grey. Only in this stage of development can one truly appreciate the complexity of the world in which we live. Only in this stage of development is it possible for individuals who disagree with one another to have a civil, respectful argument, even if the subject is an emotionally laden one like abortion or torture.
What I saw when I visited Daily Kos was a bunch of foul-mouthed kids who are still in Stage One. Liberals are right, conservatives are wrong, and Bush in particular is evil. That's the entirety of their 'argument'.
Chemjeff shows poor debating skills
Skyane writes "Sometimes, there is just right or wrong."
S/he responds with a strawman by assuming "Everything is either right or wrong."
Sounds like Obama. Anyway, no one disagrees with that. That's what a dialogue is all about. You don't call it a debate, where people take sides (there are only two sides) and the me-vs-you, this-vs-that tensions arise. A debate can be settled and one side can win, but in a dialogue it isn't about 'winning'. It isabout 'understanding' and looking at the issue from multiple angles from multiple participants. But then as Skayne mentioned there are some issues where the debate has been largely settled due to much information and evidence, and there is no longer a debate. Examples: Claims made for invading Iraq, Global Warming.
Good luck with Chemjeff's conversations and debates with 911 conspiracy theorists, global warming deniers, Iraq-911 arguers, young earth creationists, anti-vaccinationists and the likes.
It seems Chemjeff is more interested in seeking attention and emotional satisfaction by conversing with people who may not agree with him/her, rather than having an intention to seek, getting informed, acknowledging one's own cognitive biases, to learn and to evolve...
--------
When some one says Bush is wrong, what they inadverdently mean is the adminstration, the decisions made, the country going in the wrong track, etc and not the person Bush who coluld be as cool a guy like Chemjeff.
You show the same bias--all or nothing /black and white thinking--with your opinions about Daily Kos that you accuse the community about. Dialy Kos is a huge place, and is far diverse than many a partisan political blog. You read what you wish to read. Confirmation bias. And you avoid reading what you think you would read.
Please yourself preaching and projecting, and always self-justifying.
projection
Are you kidding? YOU are the one following ME around. You even use my nickname in your comment titles. It's getting a little creepy, actually.
And, honey, I'm willing to bet I've been on the Internet way longer than you. I've learned by now that there are some places for which it is simply a waste of time to visit. If I engage in a dialogue at Daily Kos, yeah you're right I may actually learn something and 'evolve'. But, only at the cost of being called a racist, a Nazi, a homophobe, a Christianist, a fascist, an ignorant redneck, a misogynist, a war-monger, a planet-hater, a money-grubbing scumbag, a traitor, a rube, Satan, and all the rest of the standard liberal slurs used aganst conservatives. And those are just the G-rated ones. The cost/benefit ratio is too high. There are many methods by which I can 'evolve', and so I'll choose to do it in ways that don't involve me volunteering to get insulted and raise my blood pressure. There was a time in my life when I would get down and dirty into those types of fights, and I'd be doing the namecalling too. But no more. I've moved beyond that. (Well, for the most part.) I don't do Usenet discussions, I don't do IRC chats, I don't go to Daily Kos, I don't go to Free Republic, I don't go to the sewers of discussion. Bottom line is, I'm going to choose to spend my free time in a respectable place. If you think you'll broaden your mind by going to Free Republic and defending Obama, at which time you will be denounced as a godless commie heathen bent on the destruction of the USA, over and over again, then be my guest. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't do it.
And besides, I already know most of the standard liberal arguments against conservative positions anyway. I work with ultra-liberals on a daily basis. I absorb their arguments by osmosis.
You can 'evolve' right here
...or maybe help the rest of us poor critical thinkers elvolve.
As some already said, no one is pointing a gun to your head. To each his own.
You just need to watch out for your own biases and hypocrisy, when you feel the need to paint the whole Daily Kos community in black and white terms.
I don't participate in RedState and FreeRepublic or Open Left and MyDD discussions but I am not averse to visiting them, like you are with dkos.
If your only interest is to know the standard liberal talking points, and repeat your standard conservative rebuttals, no you don't need to go to Daily Kos.
You complain about stereotypes of conservatives and republicans and you indulge in the same about Daily Kos community. Your blood boils when someone calls Bush evil, but you call a prominent progressive blog a gutter site. Daily Kos' Jack Kemp diary I linked in my latest blog entry, has mostly positive reviews about the life and work of the republican star. That conversation could have easily occured here at the Next Right. There will always be flamers in a big online community, dkos has its defects and suspected trolls are taken to task, but you problem primarily is with large online communties, not with dkos content. This differentiation is important, when someone links to a dkos diary. No one is asking you to read all the comments and partipate in a debate over there.
There is much one can learn, if you are really in Stage Three of your world view, by mere observation and assimilation of useful information without being emotionally invested in verbal spars and partisan rhetoric.
You certainly don't have your mind so open that your brains fall out, but clearly you come close to having a self-absorbed spongy mind.
I ask again
Well, if you saw the argument that liberals were right about the war, and conservatives were wrong, well...
They would be right.
If you saw the argument that liberals were right about us having no real reason to be in Iraq, and conservatives thought we did...
They would be right.
There is a lot of gray in this world. But these are just 2 things that there is no gray area on. There's truth, or denial. So I ask again, what did you try to debate about?
LOL and I'm the closed-minded one?
Remains:
skayne:
Wow. You have stayed way too long in the echo chamber to really believe that.
No, you are just a poor debater
I mentioned the false claims(911, WMD) made by Bush adminstrations for Invading Iraq and you talk about the reasons for subsequent staying in Iraq now that we invaded.
nope
No, I didn't.
Closed minds don't admit mistakes
Closed minded people don't admit when their party makes clear mistakes.
You keep trying to debate a pretty much cut and dried topic. Because your party was responsible.
lastrain, you FAIL.
a one link "diary" for "discussion"??? wtf dude?
You do realize a substantial number of your readers here READ DAILY KOS.
Make a fucking argument next time.
Since you're from kos, I'll put it in language that you'll understand "THIS IS NOT A DIARY"
here, unlike kos, they don't have rules on "not a diary" -- but kos' rules are still good basic ettiquette.