Evil Israel?

Over the past few weeks, i have been trying to get a handle on the current conflict between Israel and Gaza.  In researching the current military escalation as well as the area's historical context, i have come across many questions.  Specifically, why do a larger number of folks on the left blame Israel compared to the right?  Also, why does most of the world not support Israel or even recognize Hamas as a terrorist threat?

Depending on where you look and who you talk to, the opinions on this matter have a very wide range.  I have personally received opinions such as, Hamas is a Terrorist group and they all should be killed to, Israel is an imperialist country committing genocide on Gaza's peaceful civilians.  I live in an area with large populations of Jews and Muslims, but personally i have no vested interest either way, i am only looking for rational opinions in trying to understand where the truth lies and whether or not we should support Israel or share the view of most of the world

Much of the anti-Israeli sentiment comes from the left, which is unique in and of itself since the overwhelming majority of Jews align themselves with democrats politically.   I even watched an interview that posed this question to Benjamin Netanyahu the former Israeli PM, and he dodged the question.  Of course, this question can only be asked to the American Media and Citizens, since nearly all of Congress gives our ally Israel its undivided support.  But, i cant help trying to understand where and why people fall either in support of or against Israel.

Here are a few reports and opinions on the matter that i found interesting.

Opinion from the left, http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/  See, "Both parties cheerlead still more loudly for Israel's war"

Opinion from the right, http://townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2009/01/02/the_necessity_of_israel

One final note, earlier today i was reading a Townhall column by David Horowitz entitled "The War Against the Jews."  http://townhall.com/columnists/DavidHorowitz/2009/01/09/the_war_against_the_jews  In it he gives some quotes from a liberal professor from Wisconsin named Jennifer Lowenstein, herself a Jew.  After reading her shocking quotes, i googled her and found this link to the Yemen times.  The opinion from the Yemen times, though a few years old, praised this professor and charged Israel with torture, maimings, and called them "cold blooded murderers who have lost all sense of humanity."

So far on this topic, it seems that the rational people fall on the right side of the spectrum.

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Comments

War crimes

Just earlier today, I was reading about how human rights groups were concerned about Israel's use of white phosphorus munitions.  That's a war crime under the Geneva Convention.  This ex-sailor is damned thankful for such a document, so straight upo fuck you if you don't like it.  Go wear the uniform, THEN come back to me and bitch about it.

 

To spell this out for you, here's your idea of morality:

They are our allies; therefore, any atrocities they commit are justified.

Rather than,

They are in the right, therefore they are our allies.

 

Go to hell with your subjective (un)morality. 

Hamas is Lying

Go fuck yourself

Let's get this straight:

I served under Weinberger.

At that time, our mission was to defend the world against communism.

And I'll still do it, oath or no oath.

And I've got enough shells around to back me up.

 

So?

Military Service is a poor excuse for Anti-Semitism.

I grew up in New Mexico

.. and there's not really a robust Jewish population there.

I got to know a few Jews over the years.  All in all, I rather like them.  They seem to be that odd mix of progressive/ultra-conservative such as myself.  (Note: I use the term 'progressive' in the traditional sense here, and not the contemporary one)

 

Allegiance to a foreign nation, however, is something that I can't abide by.

And I took the same position toward the Irish-Americans that were sending money back to Ireland to make bombs with.  You're either Irish or American-- no middle ground-- a man cannot serve two masters. 

well, at least you're consistent.

can you please shoot the chinese espionage folks first? ;-)

After you're done shooting all the Mexicans who send money home (often to rebels revolting against their corrupt central government).

And all the Muslims who send money to Palestine, and all the Jews, and the Hindus sending money to India, you can finally have your sterling Christian State.

*blink* what where why?

communism? what part of the I/P gazan conflict has to do with communism?

Unless you're seriously at war with the kibbutzim...? Israel has a proud tradtion of both kibbituzim and moshavs. I do not think either tradition justifies shooting Jews. (the people currently occupying Palestinian territory are a different matter).

The problem to me is the electoral consequences

this is clearly an electoral ploy, and thus morally indefensible..

also, the geneva conventions only make the phosphorus illegal if used directly on people. used as a smokescreen (which is what most photos appear to show) is legal.

not that this doesn't mean a lot of damage.

hmmm..

Such strong accusations.  I think what i was trying to say is that i am CURRENTLY forming my opinion.  Funny how you take my post to be comparable to radical support for Israel.  I have no interests either way, BUT will give our ally the benefit of the doubt over radical terrorists, im sorry that an ex US Sailor would give terrorists the benefit of the doubt first.

Sorry that you hate Israel so much, but i am looking for the facts.

As far as white phosphorus munitions go, read this, "The chief doctor at Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza said he treated several victims there with serious burns that might have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries." 

Clearly this article is saying that they are only accusations.  That is my point, if Israel is using a chemical agent that is in direct violation of Geneva Conventions, then shame on them.  Im afraid YOUR BLIND HATRED is not allowing you to search for the truth.  I am trying to sort through the mud, understand the contexts and figure out who's right and who's wrong.  I advise you do the same.

I don't hate Israel

It's just that I don't give a flying fuck about them.

I am an AMERICAN citizen.  I was sworn to uphold the AMERICAN constitution.

Phosphorus is fairly clear, because of the heat in which it burns.

Go look at the SS Liberty.  Then tell me why I should give a damn about Israel.

If and ONLY if we are aligned with the good, then our allies will be those that are aligned with good also.  If not, other conditions prevail. 

Well..

if you are that upset with Israel over alleged atrocities as well as military actions from over 40 years ago, i hope you make the same stink over other atrocities going on in the world today or in the recent past.  otherwise your position is fairly clear.

Damned right

The Geneva Convention holds the same force as the UCMJ.

That's what's there to protect us.

Something like, enemy ships are obligated to rescue sailors from a downed ship rather than take them out with machine gun fire.

That's pretty important.

 

Okay, so

if Geneva Convention violations really piss you off, im guessing you were already pretty mad at Hamas and every other radical group... 

Bingo!

n/t 

so who counts as good?

Certainly not Pinochet, I would hope! Yet we overthrew Allende...

Sauds shouldn't count as good, nor should our allies the Chinese. Nor should the North Koreans, who we send food.

You sound like an idealist. sorry, can't stand them and their high horses!

Carter Go Home!

Think of it...

...this way.

Great

That had me laughing.  I really liked it.  E-mailed it to my brother.

But now it has me wondering if Israel is a bunch of socialist pussies with a national health care system.

I don't think Israelis deserve medical attention as a right. 

Only if...

...Kadima gets re-elected.

Vote Bibi!

the *&^?

Bibi's the Likud Candidate.

Livni's the Kadima Candidate.

from your comment, it is unclear whether you understand this or not. posting incase of unclarity.

Youre right

I think you are seeing a blind hatred from the left for anyone who tries to protect their own interests via the military.  Its almost as if the majority of the left see the world as a photograph rather than a movie. I do not think it is justifible to support Hamas in this conflict unless you ignore all past transgressions.  Here is a recent poll about the opinions of the current conflict:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics...

Your wrong

"I do not think it is justifible to support Hamas in this conflict unless you ignore all past transgressions"

By past transgression do you mean the taking of land and slaughtering of muslims.  How can you justifiy Isreal's actions? 

Wow......!!

"Sixty-two percent (62%) of Republicans back Israel’s decision to take military action against the Palestinians, but only half as many Democrats (31%) agree. A majority of Democrats (55%) say Israel should have tried to find a diplomatic solution first, a view shared by just 27% of Republicans."

"While 75% of Republicans say Israel is an ally of the United States, just 55% of Democrats agree. Seven percent (7%) of Democrats say Israel is an enemy of America, but only one percent (1%) of Republicans say the same. For 21% of Republicans, Israel is somewhere in between, and 28% of Democrats agree."

These poll results are scary and show you just how out of touch the people on the left are, and just how little they understand the area, let alone the ability to recognize evil.

WOW is right

You say it is scary and out of touch for 55% of the left to want a situation resolved peacefully.  Why is that so crazy?  Hasn't Iraq taught you anything?  I would say the republican party is very out of touch if only 27% would try a diplomatic solution as opposed to a military one.  What kind of party is the republicans turning into if 3 out of 4 agree that any problem should be dealt with militarily first?

Strawman Alert

What kind of party is the republicans turning into if 3 out of 4 agree that any problem should be dealt with militarily first?

Nobody said "any".  And nobody said "first".

any and first

I said any because we now have see the iraq war and this crisis.

I said first because that was the poll question.

because an election is worth 500 dead people.

thanks. glad to know you were behind that anthrax thing. and glad to knwo you won't midn the next time the capital of the uNITED STATES is bombed.

Is that so

"rational people fall on the right side of the spectrum"

By rational, you mean people who support death tolls of 100 to 1.  Those numbers would be "terrorrist" like if we didnt back their government. 

Not all rational people but...

The rational ones from what ive read and heard so far.

Using your logic, we are the bad guys of World War II.

The idea of an "even handed approach" when confronting terror is ridiculous.

to use the literal meaning of terrorist

we were terrorists by dropping an atomic bomb. read your truman. Was this justifiable? yup.

Therefore, at least some terrrorism is justifiable.

I believe that asymmetric warfare is warfare under other means. I will not condemn as immoral any terrorism whose sole target is either materiel or military personnel. To do that I would have to condemn the Swamp Fox.

However, I must lay some blame on both the occupiers and the occupiees, in this situation.

boy you just

love to argue semantics.  i got news for you, NOBODY CARES.  why argue a fabricated point when everyone understands what someone is trying to say?

i assumed that if you piped up on this subject you would assign equal blame. 

also, the idea of this "war" being a clearly political play does have a basis, but is not as set in stone as you claim.  And yes, this article is in support of what you said.  I just dont claim to know the rock solid truths as you do.  Merely that im looking for it.

http://www.newsmax.com/morris/Morris_Gaza_Israel_war/2009/01/08/169234.html  

the blame ain't equal

it's all consentrated with the extremists on both sides, who I devoutly wish could simply blow each other up so that the 70% of both Israel and Palestine who wants peace could actually acheive it.

Sorry if I sound strident, I've relatives in the region.

Look

After the genocidal ethnic cleansing of the muslims in self proclaimed isreal, they bared the remaining 1.5 million Gaza inhabitants from accessing food, work, medicine and fuel, the vast bulk of the population has been forced into abject poverty and virtual starvation. Isreal gave and enhanced Hamas's strength through its actions.

 

Im not sure

if you're going back to 1948 for your opinion on Israel's "genocidal ethnic cleansing of muslims in self proclaimed isreal," but if you are, that self proclamation was put into place and supported by the United Nations, Great Britain, and the US.

If you are referring to recent history, more specifically after Israel backed out of Gaza in 2005 and after the cease fire agreement from 2008, then Hamas was the one who actually broke the cease fire agreement.  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.htm?_r=1

yes 1948

Isreal came in and took their land.  The problem is that it isnt just any land it is their holy land which was in their control for a few thousand years prior.  Then after the jews slaughtered them they boxed them into a small strip of land away from their dome of the rock.   Just look at your prior paragraph you are giving isreal credit from removing military rule over a section of its own citizens.

I think

I believe you have your facts wrong and are not even looking for the truth on this topic.

Israel has a large minority population of Palestinians.

Gaza voted for Hamas leadership, they are not Israeli citizens.

Please enlighten me on the facts

Yes Israel has a high population of palestinians.  I think about 1.5 milllion out of 8 million. 

Gaza voted for Hamas leadership, they are not Israeli citizens

Yes they voted Hamas into leadership of Gaza.  They are citizens of Israel.  Do you think Gaza or Palestine is their own country?

Maybe you should look at the facts and not your personal bias.

you both sound nucking futs

1. Israeli Arabs are a good deal of Israel's population. They are not Palestinians, and some of them serve in the Israeli Military. They also vote in Israeli elections.

2. Israel currently occupies territory that as of the 1970's was considered to be Palestine, by global proclamation (think UN resolution).  None of the occupied people are considered to be Israeli citizens.

3. Israel continues to place civilians in harms way in the West Bank, illegally occupying land, burning down homes, etc.

4. Hamas continues to commit terrorism.

5. Neither three nor four is a good thing.

Palestine from what I know

Palestine is not a country. http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm

It is left over land from the league of nations palestine Mandate given to Britain.Palestine was a huge area, under the Ottoman Empire.There were no people called palestinians living in the area.The first time anyone was ever called a palestinian, was in the mid 1960's.Palestine included what is now :JordanLebanonIsraelSouthern SyriaEgyptian SinaiParts of Saudi Arabia.In 1948, the jewish citizens, formed Israel on land owned by the jewish residentsAfter israel declared Statehood, the surrounding arab nations all attacked israel.Israel won the war and expanded the land the new state controled for security reasons.Egypt annexed the gaza strip and Jordan annexed the west bank.Both stayed part of those countries until 1967, When the arab nations again attacked israel.Israel ended the war controlling Gaza, west bank, syrian golan heights and the egyptian Siani. Israel returned the Siani to egypt when they made peace in 1977.

They did not however return the gaza to egypt.  In Fact the military occupied it until 2005.  Supposedly Israel tried give palenstine a state but of course they would not have it.Whatever the case may be Israel took control of it and has yet to find a peaceful solution?  Palestinians, Arabs and/or Hamas have not helped the situation but be honest they where stuck with a pretty raw deal. 

Ok not even handed

You need to take a rational look and see who is acting like terrorrist.  A government that blocks food, medicine, and fuel to a specific group of its own citizens.  That kind of oppression sounds a lot like another government we just up ended.  Johnny animal, that must be why the polls supporting isreal look alot like the polls for the iraq war.  You sure you want to follow the polls again.

you mean mexico

oh, sorry, you don't listen to news, do you?

and we never knocked that gov't over.

Sorry, brother, I've got friends everywhere, and you DON"T. so sorry.

Friends dead in Israel, Friends dead in LA, Freinds dead in India.

Death is everywhere, and no place is safe.

Work On Your Form

You know whats funny?  Even when i agree with you you're ridiculously annoying.

Ive got freinds everywhere and you don't !!!!!

Rising Tide please put together a rational thought.

The Poll

I posted the poll because I found it interesting to see the divide in opinion based on political ideoloiges.  In no way am I saying there is a right or wrong answer here. Sure you can condemn both sides for actions throughout the years, but I think Israel has tried to dipomatically solve their differences with Hamas without success.  I think to call them terrorists is foolish and ignoring a lot of the history in the region.  Its unfortunate any civilian life is lost, but it is documented that Hamas is fighting out of schools and churches, putting their people in harms way.

Nonetheless, I think we agree that in the end the war will not solve any problems for Israel. If anything, they've just pissed off a whole new generation of Palestinians. But I do think Israel has the right to defend itself if they see fit.

Like Sinn Fein

Hamas is going through a transition from becoming a terrorist organization to a viable political party.

It's going to take some time, but I believe they will get there. 

But..

You are missing an important factor.  Those people probably value life a little more than the suicidal nutcases from Hamas.  I hope you are correct but it would take either a radical shift in the ideology of Hamas or the US not backing Israel anymore.

I believe the evidence lies against that

It is the tendency of radical organizations to moderate over time. Other radical groups then spring up in their place.Not sure what it was that finally led Sinn Fein to the table, but I believe that disarmament is key.That is, as long as they have ammo, they're likely to shoot each other. Once they run out of bullets, maybe they can talk, have a barbeque, etc.  

Ooops!

n/t