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Knowing When to Fight: Have They Finally Crossed the Line?
Is it time for RWII?
As I observe the machinations of politics in the United States, one thing has become perfectly clear to me: Our government has increasing contempt for the people, and the Constitution by which it was founded. Last night's passage of a healthcare bill is just the most recent example: Most Americans oppose this bill, and more importantly, it ignores the constitution in virtually every manner possible. This leaves some folks, myself included, in something of a quandry: I have sworn to uphold our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, but what happens when enemies are now running the country and trampling the Constitution? Where is that line? What's the trigger? How do I know when they have gone too far? When do I act? What actions do I take?
I ask these questions not as some revolutionary kook, but as a guy who looks and sees that his government is plainly in breech of its founding document. Will setting things right now require that I cast off all protection of law as it did our founding fathers? Will I be forced into a position that in order to repair this situation, I must be willing to engage my government in open warefare?
These things I know: I will never participate in the universal healthcare plan, and I will never pay for it, and I will never go to jail because of the foregoing. Must I wait until they 'come and get me' before I launch my resistance? What is the trigger? What is the point at which I become not merely an 'opponent of healthcare reform,' but instead an open counter-revolutionary warrior?
If I adopt that position, what acts must I entertain? This is dangerous ground, because my training instructs me that my best role is as an insurgent. Is this really how I wish to spend what remains of my life? Do I organize with others? What, exactly, is the right course of actions here?
I realize that some of you will respond with various insults, but my question is a serious one: When is enough enough, and when do I know that line has been crossed? Our Congress has become a terrorist organization, implementing its will without regard to the law which had formed it. Our President is clearly bent upon casting off the Constitution in its entirety. The foxes are not merely in the henhouse, but have control of it. What's a liberty-loving, ordinary guy to do?
- markamerica's blog
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Comments
Cite some evidence
Please explain how HCR violates the Constitution.
Please show your proof that most Americans don't want HCR and think that the current situation is just fine and should be left alone. BTW, a Rasmussen Poll based on the question "do you want the government to kill your grandmother" is NOT proof that most Americans don't want HCR.
You seem to have forgotten that the Democrats campaigned on promise of HCR in 2008 and in return gained control of the White House, the House, and the Senate. They are now delivering on what they promised in the campaign. That is democracy in action.
Loosing an election is supposed to taste like a shit sandwich. But it doesn't give you license to threaten armed insurrection. You suck it up and take it like a man and wait for the next election.
BTW, a Rasmussen Poll based
Nor, for that matter, does a Rasmussen poll prove anything, except that a polling firm that uses a flawed methodology almost inevitably produces inaccurate results.
The suggestion of armed insurrection is utterly hilarious. "Americans are going to be offered affordable health care! Time to pick up the guns!" Conspicuously absent were such calls from this quarter when Bush was using the constitution as toilet paper, doing things like asserting and employing the "power" he'd made up to kidnap and hold people indefinitely. But threaten some of the insurance industries' massive profits? "Time for a revolution!"
Clowns fit in better at the circus than on political web sites.
I could care less about polls...
As you note, polls can be engineered to give the result a pollster wants. Nevertheless, polls do demonstrate that the American people oppose this plan.
Still, whether there are 300 million people who notice that Congress has become the enemy of the constitution, or merely 1, what is is. You can shroud your contempt for liberty in any terms you like, but that doesn't change the fact: You hate life and the liberty necessary to live it.
Markamerica
Illustrate for us, please
how Congress has become the enemy of the constitution. Is it because they passed a bill that you don't like and therefore that bill is unconstitutional?
BTW, you should have typed "couldn't care less" in your title - otherwise, you are writing the opposite of what you intended to express.
No, I could care less...
...just not much less.
Markamerica
Are you able to read?
1.) Ours is a republic. It is not a democracy, and on that point alone, one can begin to question if our Congress isn't moving toward thumbing their noses at the Constitution.
2.) I threatened nothing. I posed questions.
3.) There can be no right to vote away the rights of others. But then, you're a proponent of 'democracy,' and hate republics, don't you?
Thug.
Markamerica
How very Beckian of you.
I'll ask again: how does HCR violate the constitution? Please don't just supply another non-sequitur as ridiculous as the last one.
A republic is a form of what kind of government?? I'll give you a hint - it begins with a "d" and ends with "emocracy".
Which of your rights were voted away last night?
First, let's clear this up...
The constitution itself specifies a republican form of government. The founders hated democracy. They knew that democracies always devolve into organized mob rule. Specifically, the US is a Constitutional Representative Republic. That is the technical name for the form of government adopted under our Constitution. Period.
Next, the bill passed last night represents at least 4 obvious violations of the bill of rights.
1.) How will the government know whether I have healthcare insurance? They will have to violate my right to be secure in my person and affects. In order to gain this information, which I will not willingly give them, they will essentially have to undertake some sort of warrantless search. Moreover, they will require that I provide proof that I have not committed a crime-that I have insurance-or they will fine and jail me. This contradicts the notion of 'innocent until proven guilty' and also the idea that one not be required to bear witness against himself.
2.) This is a 9th and 10th Amendment issue. It is a usurpation of states' authorities under the federalist system. It is also therefore a usurpation of the peoples' rights under the same amendments.
You people are thugs.
Markamerica
And how are the representatives selected?
By people voting. What do we call forms of government wherein universal suffrage elections determine the composition of the government? D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.
Your arguments about constitutionality are as flimsy as your reluctance to use the small "d" word is insane. It boils down to: you don't like the bill, and therefore it is unconstitutional.
If only we had some way of determining whether something is constitutional or not.
Oh, wait, we do - it is called "The Supreme Court". And I'm sure the briefs are are already being drafted. However, that doesn't matter to you, obviously - you'll be holed up in your survivalist cave sniping at trespassers long before the case is ever heard. Don't forget to set up a satellite dish - otherwise, you won't be able to continue to receive those coded messages about future ops via the Glen Beck Show.
Sorry, but who is Glen Beck and why should I care?
I didn't understand the 'beckian' reference earlier, and now I am confused. Who the hell is Glen Beck and why should I give a rat's backside about him/her?
The Supreme Court has itself taken on an unconstitutional role since at least Marbury versus Madison. More, composed as it is with statist filth, I really couldn't care less what they rule any longer. After their ridiculous ruling on condemnation and eminent domain a few years back, really, the US Supreme Court has lost any reverence or authority in my view. They too have become enemies of the people and the Constitution.
For the record, I don't have a 'cave' but am actively working on a bunker. I will gladly take care of looters and other trespassers as they may happen along.
I have no problem using the word 'democracy,' except in conjunction with our republic. I'll tell you what: I will admit this is a democracy as soon as you can find the article in the constitution that guarantees a democratic form of government. As it stands, however, it does specify a republican form. Until you can amend that, kiss off. Thug.
Markamerica
It is right at the top, in big letters.
"We the People".
If the rulings of the Supreme Court are meaningless to you, then I guess your solution is to make these decisions yourself, and the enforce them with your gun?
"Republic" and "democracy"
The hatred of democracy found in the less aristocratical of the founders is directed toward what is called "pure democracy" or "simple democracy," and this is contrasted with a democratic republic of the sort then being proposed for the U.S. This common and rather stupid confusion over "democracy" and "republic" was cleared up by Thomas Paine in "The Rights of Man" over 200 years ago. Rather than re-explain it, I'll just quote him on it:
What is called a republic is not any particular form of government. It is wholly characteristical of the purport, matter or object for which government ought to be instituted, and on which it is to be employed, Res-Publica, the public affairs, or the public good; or, literally translated, the public thing. It is a word of a good original, referring to what ought to be the character and business of government; and in this sense it is naturally opposed to the word monarchy, which has a base original signification. It means arbitrary power in an individual person; in the exercise of which, himself, and not the res-publica, is the object.
Every government that does not act on the principle of a Republic, or in other words, that does not make the res-publica its whole and sole object, is not a good government. Republican government is no other than government established and conducted for the interest of the public, as well individually as collectively. It is not necessarily connected with any particular form, but it most naturally associates with the representative form, as being best calculated to secure the end for which a nation is at the expense of supporting it.
Various forms of government have affected to style themselves a republic. Poland calls itself a republic, which is an hereditary aristocracy, with what is called an elective monarchy. Holland calls itself a republic, which is chiefly aristocratical, with an hereditary stadtholdership. But the government of America, which is wholly on the system of representation, is the only real Republic, in character and in practice, that now exists. Its government has no other object than the public business of the nation, and therefore it is properly a republic; and the Americans have taken care that this, and no other, shall always be the object of their government, by their rejecting everything hereditary, and establishing governments on the system of representation only. Those who have said that a republic is not a form of government calculated for countries of great extent, mistook, in the first place, the business of a government, for a form of government; for the res-publica equally appertains to every extent of territory and population. And, in the second place, if they meant anything with respect to form, it was the simple democratical form, such as was the mode of government in the ancient democracies, in which there was no representation. The case, therefore, is not, that a republic cannot be extensive, but that it cannot be extensive on the simple democratical form; and the question naturally presents itself, What is the best form of government for conducting the Res-Publica, or the Public Business of a nation, after it becomes too extensive and populous for the simple democratical form? It cannot be monarchy, because monarchy is subject to an objection of the same amount to which the simple democratical form was subject.
It is possible that an individual may lay down a system of principles, on which government shall be constitutionally established to any extent of territory. This is no more than an operation of the mind, acting by its own powers. But the practice upon those principles, as applying to the various and numerous circumstances of a nation, its agriculture, manufacture, trade, commerce, etc., etc., a knowledge of a different kind, and which can be had only from the various parts of society. It is an assemblage of practical knowledge, which no individual can possess; and therefore the monarchical form is as much limited, in useful practice, from the incompetency of knowledge, as was the democratical form, from the multiplicity of population. The one degenerates, by extension, into confusion; the other, into ignorance and incapacity, of which all the great monarchies are an evidence. The monarchical form, therefore, could not be a substitute for the democratical, because it has equal inconveniences.
Much less could it when made hereditary. This is the most effectual of all forms to preclude knowledge. Neither could the high democratical mind have voluntarily yielded itself to be governed by children and idiots, and all the motley insignificance of character, which attends such a mere animal system, the disgrace and the reproach of reason and of man.
As to the aristocratical form, it has the same vices and defects with the monarchical, except that the chance of abilities is better from the proportion of numbers, but there is still no security for the right use and application of them.
Referring them to the original simple democracy, it affords the true data from which government on a large scale can begin. It is incapable of extension, not from its principle, but from the inconvenience of its form; and monarchy and aristocracy, from their incapacity. Retaining, then, democracy as the ground, and rejecting the corrupt systems of monarchy and aristocracy, the representative system naturally presents itself; remedying at once the defects of the simple democracy as to form, and the incapacity of the other two with respect to knowledge.
Simple democracy was society governing itself without the aid of secondary means. By ingrafting representation upon democracy, we arrive at a system of government capable of embracing and confederating all the various interests and every extent of territory and population; and that also with advantages as much superior to hereditary government, as the republic of letters is to hereditary literature.
It is on this system that the American government is founded. It is representation ingrafted upon democracy. It has fixed the form by a scale parallel in all cases to the extent of the principle. What Athens was in miniature America will be in magnitude. The one was the wonder of the ancient world; the other is becoming the admiration of the present. It is the easiest of all the forms of government to be understood and the most eligible in practice; and excludes at once the ignorance and insecurity of the hereditary mode, and the inconvenience of the simple democracy.
That's from "The Rights of Man," book II, ch. 3
How HCR violates the Constitution.
The House Bill violates the Constitution on multiple levels.
The easiest one is the individual mandate to either have health insurance or pay a fine (or tax or excise tax or whatever they want to call it).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR200908...
The more ideological argument is that the Framers never intended for the General Welfare to mean "anything Congress wanted". There are enumeratd powers which Madison, the principle author of the Constitution, said were specifically written to define what Congress could tax and spend to provide for the General Welfare. Health Care and Health Insurance are not in the enumerated powers of Congress (Article 1 Section 8). Thomas Jefferson agreed with this interpretation and with minor challenges over about 150 years that standard held until 1936 when SCOTUS decided that the General Welfare clause could literally mean anything.
A Constitutional Challenge should easily defeat the bill's individual mandate but again, we've got one wishy-washy semi-Progressive who could be the swing vote (Kennedy). Anyone who objectively looks at Article 1 Section 8 and reads the arguments made by Madison could see that the clause was never meant to be used the way it has been since the early 1900s.
The bottom line is this: The only truly Constitutional way to provide for Obamacare would be to have a Constitutional Amendment passed stating that Health Care and Health Insurance are now an enumerated power of Congress. Such an amendment would never make it through the amendment process which is why Progressives decided to hijack the General Welfare clause via the Courts.
If this bill is signed into law, there will literally be no need to have a Constitution beyond the General Welfare clause because Congress will have completely gutted the rest of it.
Every problem we face today can be traced back to the Progressive / Liberal / Statist interpretation of the General Welfare and Commerce Clauses.
Dead people
MAdison's dead. So is Jefferson. So are all the founding fathers. That makes them highly irrelevant. What they did or did not want simply doesn't matter because the constitution is not a contract between you and them. It's a contract between you and me (and every other citizen). We decide what it is and what it means. We've collectively decided that the commerce clause gives the federal government wide latitude and you;re just going to have to deal with that. Appeals to (deceased) authorities aren't going to change anything.
Well now that's just retarded on the face of it. Even if you allow that we should be using a strict originalist interpretation (and that's a hell of a hard argument to make without tying yourself into rhetorical knots) there are a huge number of problems today that have nothing whatsoever to do with the US government and any theories about what it should or shouldn't do.
Actually, no...
The Constitution is a contract between the States. The States. Let me say that once more: The States.
Deciding what the commerce cause means isn't up to us. Its meaning was established when the contract was ratified by the states.
Markamerica
States are not persons
States are simply collections of people. The state doesn't do anything. People in the state do things. "A contract between states" is simply shorthand for "a contract between the people of these states."
Huh? You should stop before you say anything intelligent
And I quote mr. Mark I am America.
"The Constitution is a contract between the States. The States. Let me say that once more: The States."
So does that mean you think that people have no rights? Only states? After all if its a contract between the States then nothing in it applies to individuals. Oh I get it you're just not very bright. Never mind. This was a fun thread though. I like stupid trying to be smart. It's funny.
No "We" did not...
No, "We" did not collectively decide to give the commerce clause wide latitude. It was forced on us by Congress and solidified by a stacked SCOTUS.
There was no amendment increasing the scope of Article 1 Section 8. The States were railroaded with zero input into the matter.
You're wrong. Period.
Sure we did
we elected the congress that wrote the laws. We elected the president and the senate that appointed the SCOTUS. We didn't challenge the results through the court system.
Look I'm sorry that you feel pouty about the rest of us not sharing your paeculiar view of constitutional law. My prescription remains the same though: get over it. This isn't an argument you can even come close to winning.
Or give yourself an ulcer bitching about something you can't change. It makes little difference to me in the long run.
oh, yeah: period.
Do we do this before or after
we dismantle the air traffic control system and repeal Medicare?
Not to mention the Air Force. -nt.
.
And there it is...
There's the "progressive" angle in this entire matter.
"So what? We've already gutted the Constitution, and perverted the original intent of the Welfare and Commerce Clauses. We can't do anything about it."
THAT rationale, THAT mindset, is the very reason we are in the mess we're in. This country is destined for failure because of people like you. So-called "pragmatists" who believe in circumventing the process laid out in the contract between the Federal Government, the States, and the People. You, consciously or subconsciously, are saying that the Federal government can simply change the rules as it sees fit. That is not how it was supposed to work.
Actually my point at least
...was that originalists/strict constructionists/etc are obvious hypocrites who scream "unconstitutional" to try and attack programs they don't like but always find excuses why the ones they do like are okay.
That makes people like you douche bags which is part of why the rest of us ignore you and your petulant whines so assiduously (when we aren't taunting your failed logic).
As before: get over it. You've tried to pull a con job and failed. Time to move on.
You lose.
1) Resorted to name-calling
2) Claim to "ignore" us while frequenting a site written by "us".
You misunderstand
I don't mean ignore in that I (or others) actually pretend you don't exist, I mean ignore in the sense that we don't give a second thought to your complaint. Besides this site is not just for strict constructionists, quite the opposite in fact since it is about how the GOP might actually get back in the game.
You do understand that you have no chance of rolling us back to a late eighteenth century style government, right?
There you go again...
... pretending you aren't giving a second thought to our "complaints" while clearly analyzing, incorrectly in this case, our "complaints".
Regardless, the beauty of our Constitution is that it is timeless. It is the very first system established by man that recognizes that our rights aren't granted to us by government. YOU, and your progressive ilk, are the ones who want to role us back to an ancient form of government. One where the State not only grants you your rights, but decides what it will and won't provide you and when.
You just don't realize it.
Um...
The analysis was the first thought. See how that works? You complain, I think "well that's completely retarded because of A, B, C.... X, Y, and oh yeah, Z." At that point I stop worrying about your complaints. I don't give them a second thought because the first one thoroughly debunked any possible merit to your claim.
Re: RBill
RBill, fortunately "people like you" aren't a representative sample of the Next Right audience. Heck, i don't even find the illogical, whining, douche bag types a represenative sample of any other political blog, conservative or otherwise*--like Free Republic, Red State, Townhall, Daily Kos, Open Left etc--either. So please stop hiding under the Next Right skirt while you are not busy delivering your whines in the unfortunate ears of those who care to give you an audience but don't share your views.
*Of course The Next Right is a 'right wing' blog that supports the Republican party more than an ideologically 'consevative' blog.
Heh...
Insults. How... typically liberal.
You don't have to repeal anything if...
..you can amend the constitution to cover it. If not, it must end.
And yes, that would include the Air Force. Our Constitution makes no provision for it, which is why it started out as the Army Air corps, but the National Security Act of 1947 established it as a separate branch. We fought all of WWII with it as a subset of the Army. I'm not sure why that was done, except for the very purpose of flouting the Constitution.
Markamerica
Don't let the bunker door
slam you on the ass on your way in!