Obama vs. America

We are in the early stages of a war. There may be no military action, no bullets or bombs, but we are in a war none the less. This war is for the soul of America. This war is for the preservation of the principles our country was founded on and which have kept us free and prosperous since our beginning. President Obama and his allies do not like America, at least not as it is and has been. They do not believe that America is the greatest country in the history of civilization. They do not believe in American exceptionalism. They do not believe that we as Americans have a right to be proud of what we have accomplished and to be proud of the good we have done for the world. They believe America needs to be remade. They are wrong.

Obama and friends are wrong about what America believes and what America stands for.

America is a Christian nation. There may be arguments about the particular faith of some of the Founding Fathers, but the majority were undeniably Christians. One would have to “willfully suspend disbelief” to believe  otherwise after reading our founding documents as well as our history. The real history, not the revisionist history. We do not deny anyone the privilege to worship as they choose, or to decline any form of worship. But our country was founded under Christian principles and beliefs.

The God of our founders and the God I pray to is Yahweh, Jehovah God, the God of Abraham and Issac. The God of the Bible. He is not some generic “man upstairs”. He is the Creator of the universe and of mankind. Because of His deep love for us, He gave His son Jesus willingly as an atonement for our sin. He is boundlessly good and has all power. He is Love, but He is a jealous God. He will chastise and correct us as individuals and as a nation if we stray too far for too long. We have strayed far and long and we need to return to Him as a nation. Pray for His mercy, His blessings, His wisdom and His guidance. If ever we needed it, it is now. If you don’t know Him, seek Him and you will find Him.

We do not believe that America needs to be remade, as Obama has stated. We believe that instead we need to return to the ideals of our Founders. We need to return to lower taxes, limited, smaller government, and unfettered personal freedom.

We do not believe that America is arrogant. Strong, confident and proud, yes. Arrogant, no.

America does not stand for wealth redistribution. We are generous, compassionate people with our money, but our generosity is not for Obama to dictate.

We believe that capitalism is the best economic system. Socialism doesn’t work. Marxism doesn’t work. We believe in equality of opportunity, not in equality of outcome. Some people work harder, some people are smarter, some people have better ideas. When those people succeed, the country succeeds. When they become wealthy, the country becomes wealthy. Wealthy people buy things, they build things, they create jobs,  they start businesses, they invest in American prosperity. America would collapse without them. They are not evil and do not deserve punishment.

America does not believe in the punitive taxation of our achievers. We believe in encouraging and rewarding achievement. It is counter productive to tax successful achievers into oblivion. All Americans should pay taxes so that all Americans have a stake in keeping the system honest. Consider that the City of Chicago just closed for a day to save money, with more days scheduled for more savings. A productive business does not save money by closing. Businesses produce wealth by being open for business. The government only takes, while producing nothing. Financially speaking, they are far more efficient and productive if they would just stay at home. We know that poor people don’t get any richer just because money is taken from the wealthy.

America does not stand for federally funded abortion on demand. A large and growing segment of us believe that abortion is wrong. However, the law of the land allows it for now. But using our tax dollars to support it is unacceptable.

America does not believe in a weakened, ineffective military. We do not believe that our military should be used to enforce social experimentation. We believe in spending our tax dollars to equip and train the greatest fighting force ever known to mankind, then praying to God that we will not have to use it. We love peace, but we are not afraid to fight for  liberty. We know that we don’t make weak nations any stronger by being weak ourselves. Being the only remaining superpower is a good thing. A very good thing. We have no desire to weaken ourselves in the interest of “fairness”. Senator Barbara Boxer had the audacity to publicly humiliate a brigadier general for referring to her as “ma’am” rather than as ”senator”. This is symptomatic of the arrogance and ignorance of many of our elected representatives. They have come to think of themselves as royalty. They think wrongly. I know of several fitting monikers for Senator Boxer, but decorum prevails.

We welcome legal immigrants, as we always have. But for those who have no more respect for our country and our laws than to cross our borders unlawfully, we are not welcoming. We certainly don’t believe in giving them the rewards of our hard earned tax dollars in the form of social benefits. We do not support amnesty for illegal aliens. Secure our borders and enforce our laws. English is our language. Learn it if you want to live here.

We do not believe in homosexual marriage. We believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. Period. That does not make us homophobic. That does not make us haters. We also do not support the concept of hate crimes. Any unlawful harm to a human being by another human being is wrong, and should be dealt with under our criminal codes. The fact that the victim may be a part of some minority doesn’t make the crime worse. It is just as wrong to harm a white heterosexual male as it is to harm a black homosexual female. The actions of the law breaker should determine the punishment for the crime, not the race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or other social characteristic of the victim.

America is not a racist nation. There are some racists in America. There are also some murderers in America, but that doesn’t make us a murderous nation. We recognized the evil of slavery, and we abolished it. We have done more to eliminate racial bias in our culture than any other nation. When we disagree with a person of another racial or ethnic background, that disagreement cannot be dismissed by a cry of “racism”. Neither are our police officers inherently racist, as Obama implied during the recent uproar over the arrest of a black Harvard professor by a white police sergeant.

We do not believe that radical Islam is our friend. We do believe that Israel is our friend and deserves our support. We believe that Islamic jihadists that want to kill Americans should be called terrorists and not some ridiculous watered down, politically correct name. They should be considered our mortal enemies, without consideration of how they “feel” or why they hate us. We are not the cause of their irrational hatred of us and what we stand for. We do not need to change so they will like us. We do need to eliminate them.

We do not believe that our President should sit down with tin horn dictators from Iran, North Korea, Venezuala or anywhere else unless there are precursory agreements about the substance and outcome of those conversations. Anything less will be used against us and will be seen as a source of legitimacy and power for our enemies, and as an indication of weakness on the part of America.

We do not believe in a government run health care system. We do not want our personal health care decisions made by the same government that has run Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the Postal Service so ineffectively that they are all on the verge of bankruptcy. Reforms are needed, but the system does not need to be recreated and it most certainly does not need to be placed under government control. This has been tried and has failed in Canada and in Britain. Changing the name to “public option” or “co-op” doesn’t change anything. We don’t want it!

We do believe that as American citizens, we have the absolute privilege and right to attend town hall meetings, speak our minds, and ask questions. We are not un-American as stated by Nancy Pelosi and Steney Hoyer. We are not evil mongers as claimed by Harry Reid. We are Americans doing what Americans have always done – standing up against intrusive over-reaching government and demanding adherence to the Constitution.

We do not believe in the “fairness doctrine”. All Americans are free to express their opinions through any legal avenue available to them. Some are better at that than others. Some don’t care enough to expend the energy. Some  are better able to convince others. Some ideas are better than others. Some ideas are just plain bad. Some ideas are wildly popular and some have very limited or no support. The government’s definition of “fairness” is equality of all ideas, equality of the effectiveness of the presenter, and equality of the acceptance of the idea by Americans. This is nothing but government control of the market place of ideas, and the only way to force that to happen is to silence the best, most legitimate ideas so that the worst  ideas have equal legitimacy. Besides being stupid, this is un-American.

We believe in the 2nd amendment right to bear arms. This is not limited to hunting purposes, in fact it has nothing to do with hunting. The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to allow the citizenry to defend themselves against those who would harm them, whether that be a criminal or a tyrannical out of control government.

We believe that our elected officials work for us – not the other way around. We are their employers, not their subjects. As their employers, we retain the right to fire them when their performance becomes unacceptable. We as citizens loan them temporary power to act on our behalf. The power still rests with the people, not with the politicians. When they forget that, they must be reigned in. It is way past time for some serious reigning in. I would start with President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid, then proceed from there. They have clearly forgotten who they work for.

According to the Declaration of Independence, Americans are “endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,”. These rights did not come from the government and they cannot be taken away by the government. Any and all attempts to restrict these rights must and will be fiercely resisted.

I am proud to be an American. I am proud of our history, imperfect as it may be. I am proud of what my countrymen have overcome. I am proud of American ingenuity, American inventiveness, American determination, and especially American goodness. I thank God that I was blessed to be born American. I refuse to apologize for being a citizen of the greatest, most generous nation ever in existence. America has done more for many nations than they have done for themselves. American blood has been shed around the world in defense of justice and against tyranny. American dollars have been freely spent to aid those less blessed than we. I will not apologize for the greatness of my country.

Those of us who believe in America’s greatness, Her goodness, Her limitless future and potential, must fight and win this war. We must win it for our children, and for their children. We must win it for the Founding Fathers. We must win it for the thousands who have fought and died to preserve our right to fight and to live free. Generations past have lived up to their challenges. Generations future are depending on us to do the same. It is our turn, and history will judge us. Our generation now has  to stand and be counted.

We must win this war. Our weapons are our words. Our weapons are our votes, our participation in the system our fore fathers designed. Our ammunition is truth – factual information subjected to critical and honest analysis. Write letters to the editor, contact your representatives, attend town hall meetings, email friends…however you choose to participate, get in the fight! You, sitting on the sidelines, is what the other side is counting on. The stakes are too high to allow them victory.

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America is not a Christian nation.

America is not a Christian nation. Congress said so in 1797:

"the Government of the United States of America was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

The Constituion is, for a 18th century document, shockingly agnostic. No mention of God, Jesus, or the Creator. Instead, it opens with the bold declaration that "We the People" are responsible for this document. That is 100% anti-biblical:

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. Jerimiah 10:23

And what does the Constituion do? It establishes a system of government with three branches. This concept of "checks and balances" is also anti-bibilical - in that text the way good government works is that God picks a leader and then everyone does exactly what the leader says or else there will be smiting!

Now Korah...and Dathan and Abiram...and On...rose up before Moses, with...250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?...And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment...And it came to pass...that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and ... they, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Moving on, lets line up the Bill of Rights with the Ten Comandments, to discover how far the Founders were influenced by the bible when setting out our most cherished rights:

  • The First Amendment is directly contradicted by the First, Second, Third and Fourth Commandments. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech and freedom of religion. The first four Commandments are all about establishing religion and curtailing speech.
  • The Fifth Amendment is contradicted by the Second Commandment: the Old Testament doctrine of "punishing children for the iniquity of parents" is contrary to the Bill of Rights and American justice.
  • The other Amendments have no analog or opposite in the Commandments - in other words, the Founders based them on their own ideas, not some ancient tribal malarkey.

And, finally - if America is a Christian nation, then I suppose you support invalidating all the Supreme Court decisions involving Justices Brandeis, Cardozo,Frankfurter, Goldberg, and Fortas; and also the immediate removal of Ginsburg and Breyer?

 

Invalid Conclusion

<<This concept of "checks and balances" is also anti-bibilical - in that text the way good government works is that God picks a leader and then everyone does exactly what the leader says or else there will be smiting!>>

Actually, religion is the ultimate democracy. You have the choice as to whether or not to believe.  It's your choice, and your choice only.  It's not clouded with electoral colleges, district representatives, etc.  CHOICE is the predominate concept which permeates the enitre bible. 

<<God picks a leader....>>

Except that when there was the tower of babel, god quickly recognized the pitfalls of having a single leader.  In response, god broke up the city and scattered the people into multi-language groupings with the idea being that no one leader would gain so much power so as to mandate individual behavior;  the ultimate check and balance.

Your argument relies heavily on the understanding of the bible such that you may draw compares and contrasts.  Unfortunately, your ill command of biblical teachings turns this into opinion and not conclusion based upon fact.

So you don't even know the basic definition of "democracy"?

"Democracy" means power or rule by the people - not "choice".  Which renders your first paragraph nonsensical.

And, BTW, since when are religions big on "choice"? Try going up to your pastor and saying "I choose to have gay sex and slaughter goats in my basement as an offering to Satan, but would also like to be active in the church youth group" and see how far you get.

If you are Catholic, then you know that you damn well better do as you are told - the Pope is infallible, after all.

If you are Protestant, then you must be a member of an obscure branch; because otherwise you would have signed up for the Luther's doctrine that although human beings could will, they could only will evil. Anything good that appeared to come from humanity actually came from God; the human creature is merely an agent of divine providence. If you went up to Luther and said "You have the choice as to whether or not to believe.", you would find yourself nailed to door in Wittenberg - tounge first.

Regarding the Tower of Babel:

a) it is transparently obvious that there WAS no Tower of Babel - it is a classic example of a pre-scientific society making up a story to make sense of some of the confusing things they see around them, namely, why do the Babylonian speak a language we don't understand, and what is the deal with these ziggurats, which are so unlike anything we had back home.

b) there is absolutely nothing in the biblical passage about God fearing a leader's power. There is no leader in the story - it is the people who decide to build the tower, it is the people who are scattered and confounded by God.

c) breaking up people into different language groups does nothing to stop any leader of any of the groups from gaining "so much power so as to mandate individual behavior". In fact, I'd argue that it actually makes it easier - small groups are more easily cowed than large ones, who have a sense of the strength of their numbers.

I studied theology in America and Europe when I was in college - I'll be happy to pit my command of biblical teachings against yours any day. Unlike you, I'm not blinkered by a desperate need to try to reconcile the irreconcilable, which makes my job a lot easier.

 

 

You don't know the fundamentals of democracy.

<<"Democracy" means power or rule by the people - not "choice".  Which renders your first paragraph nonsensical.>>

Huh?.....How do the people rule?....BY CHOICE.  Each and every persons chooses whether or not to do something.  The sum total of all the "choices" forms the consensus which then becomes law/policy/belief, etc.

As for your  Catholic/Protestant rant,  church leadership/clergy are not there to judge you.  They are there to guide you.  The basic mantra of clergy is that they are NOT god.  They do not judge, they are to guide.  As for the goat sacrifice to satan...actually, you would be welcome at youth group.  It would be recommended to stop the silly ritual stuff in the basement as that behavior is not in accordance with the word of god, but it is not prohibitive.  In fact, by one getting exposure to the word of god at youth group, that alone might stop the crazy behavior.

As for Babel......

<<it is transparently obvious that there WAS no Tower of Babel - it is a classic example of a pre-scientific society making up a story to make sense of some of the confusing things they see around them , namely, why do the Babylonian speak a language we don't understand, and what is the deal with these ziggurats, which are so unlike anything we had back home.>>

You have a stated conclusion with no fact.  That is a hypothesis.  Then, to further instantiate your hypothesis...you ask a question.  This is another case of EPIC LIBERAL LOGIC FAIL. 

<<I studied theology in America and Europe when I was in college - I'll be happy to pit my command of biblical teachings against yours any day. Unlike you, I'm not blinkered by a desperate need to try to reconcile the irreconcilable, which makes my job a lot easier.>>

Clearly, because of your statements regarding catholic/protestant religions, your understanding of religion is suspect at best.  As for your understanding of democracy, you failed to recognize the most basic element of democracy...choice.  Third, with regard to your statements on the Tower of Babel, you've indicated a fault in logic.  You form a conclusion not based upon fact.

I RECOMMEND THAT YOU CALL YOUR COLLEGE ADMISSIONS OFFICE AND REQUEST A REFUND.  Clearly they have failed you.

Srsly

The logical extension of your "argument" that democracy = choice is that no choices can be restricted, because that would be undemocratic. Unlimited choice = breakdown of society! Hello anarchy and mayhem! Nice one, americanmale.

It is true that democracy involves choice - but it also involves a lot of other things that are not compatabile with organized religion. For example, protection and toleration of minority points of view and freedom of speech. Things which Christianity is not really known for. Inquisition, anyone? Every Christian sect I'm aware of insists on some degree of orthodoxy. Here is my favorite recent example: Southern Baptists eject a Ft. Worth church because it discussed including pictures of same-sex couple from the congregation in its directory. They just discussed doing it - and that was enough for them to be banished.

So, church leaders, not big on choice. And, despite what you say, church founders not big on choice other. Martin Luther:

Actually, religion is the ultimate democracy. You have the choice as to whether or not to believe.  It's your choice, and your choice only.

With this from Luther:

the power of "free-will" is nil, and it does no good, nor can do, without grace. . . . "free-will" is obviously applicable only to the Divine Majesty If "free-will" is ascribed to men, it is ascribed with no more propriety than divinity itself would be-and no blasphemy could exceed that!

Lutheran and Gay Leadership Debate?

<<The logical extension of your "argument" that democracy = choice is that no choices can be restricted, because that would be undemocratic. Unlimited choice = breakdown of society! Hello anarchy and mayhem! Nice one, americanmale.>>

No, that isn't a logical extension because governing law, which was enacted by democratic choice, governs to various degrees....choice.  i.e. there is a hierarchy. 

More on the religious rants (which are most interesting).

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but are you vested in the Lutheran vs Gay leadership debate currently underway?  If so, it explains alot about your last post. 

However, let's look at the exclusion of the Ft. Worth Church issue.  The S. Baptists decided to exclude the church from membership just because they (the ft worth church) was thinking about including pictures in a directory of some of their members who just happened to be gay,

The S. Baptists have every right to do that as they have determined, by consensus of leaders choice, that the ft worth church is not in compliance with scripture.  Scripture says clearly that thou shalt no lay with another man, yadda, yadda, yadda.

OK, so the S. Baptists want to be portrayed as being in strict compliance with scripture...so what?  Should the S. Baptists to be forced to include the Ft. Worth church?  That is DICTATORSHIP.  In fact, that is a common thread of liberalism today...use the allegedly oppressed to FORCE ACTION such that the allegedly oppressed is accomodated at the expense of the "CHOICE" of the S. Baptists.  That same facet of liberalism is even being used today in the health care debate.

As for Luther.  It's a good thing i excercise my CHOICE not to aspire to the writings of Martin Luther.  

Why is it that a passing reference to homosexuality as a sin

The bible has over a million verses. 7 of them refer to same-sex relations, and none of them encompas the modern understanding of homosexual orientation. So why do you hold them up to be an absolutely binding stricture, while ignoring, among other things, the hundreds of endorsements the bible gives to, among other things, polyagamy, slavery, and theocratic kingship?

Here are some instructions from Deutornomy that nobody bothers about any more - so why is what you are alluding to any different?

 "No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.

Don't you just LOVE the concept of punishing children and their children for the actions of their parents?

A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

This is interesting - juries would not be allowed to hear cases where there is only a single witness.

Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Talk about tort reform!

If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

If you are going to argue that homosexual acts are a sin, then you are also going to have to accept that about 75% of the teenage boys in America belong on death row.

 "When you enter your neighbor's vineyard, then you may eat grapes until you are fully satisfied, but you shall not put any in your basket.

 When you enter your neighbor's standing grain, then you may pluck the heads with your hand, but you shall not wield a sickle in your neighbor's standing grain"

Try that in the Bible Belt - on the land of someone who is an enthusiastic member of the NRA.

 

 

 PS: I have no idea what the Lutheran  and gay leadership debate is.

Fundies

Mike from NC is right about one thing, there is a war.  And he's on the side that's losing.  The religious fundies who elected Bush are now exposed as anti-science, anti-intellectual, theocratic nut cases.

Hey Mike, if this country is indeed a Christian Nation as you claim, how come the law of the land (otherwise known as the Constitution) doesn't make a single reference to God, Jesus or any other imaginary deity?  As a matter of fact, the Constitution explicitly states that there shall be NO establishment of religion and that there will be NO religious tests for public officials.  Not very Christian of the founders, eh?

And I notice that you bring up the vague phrase "endowed by our Creator" from the Declaration of Independence.  Which creator do you think they meant?  Could it have been Allah, Odin, Mithra, Zeus or any of the other many thousands of man-made creator beings worshipped by men over the millenia?  If America is a Christian Nation as you contend, wouldn't Jesus have been mentioned or at least a generic reference to God?  You've got some big time problems with your feeble arguments here Mike.

And the rest of this essay reads like any other right wing Christianist fundie manifesto prattling on about the evil homosexual agenda or the fictitious fairness doctrine or whatever else Rush Limbaugh told you to think that day.  Like I said in the beginning, there is a war, just not the one you think.  The war is between reason and theocracy.

I could post a hundred quotes that counter your "Christian Nation" claims, but here are just a few quick ones I looked up for the occasion:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." -Thomas Jefferson

"The governement of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." -John Adams

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.  He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection for his own." -Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches." -Benjamin Franklin

Mike, I'm not even sure I'd call you a Christian.  A Christian is someone who reads the bible and finds a spiritual guide for their own life.  A religious nut is someone who reads the bible and finds a doctrinal guide for everyone else's lives.

Why are liberals always mad?

Hey Mead and Democritus. Wow guys! Hit a nerve, did I?

Mead, If someone were to slaughter goats as a sacrifice to satan, how likely is it that they even have a pastor or would want to work with the youth group? And you refer to americanmale's comments as nonsensical? That's the best you gcould come up with?

And Democritus, check the Founder's quotes below and tell me which Creator you think they were talking about. So much for my "feeble" arguments I guess.

John Adams and John Hancock:

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

John Quincy Adams:•

 “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

William Bradford•

wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking: • 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world" The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620

“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”

"The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s.

These signers have long inspired deep admiration among both secularists (who appreciate the non-denominational nature of the Declaration) and by traditional religionists (who appreciate the Declaration's recognition of God as the source of the rights enumerated by the document). Lossing's seminal 1848 collection of biographies of the signers of the Declaration of Independence echoed widely held sentiments held then and now that there was divine intent or inspiration behind the Declaration of Independence. Lossing matter-of-factly identified the signers as "instruments of Providence" who have "gone to receive their reward in the Spirit Land." From: B. J. Lossing, Signers of the Declaration of Independence, George F. Cooledge & Brother: New York (1848) [reprinted in Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence, WallBuilder Press: Aledo, Texas (1995)], pages 7-12.

And, From: Robert G. Ferris (editor), Signers of the Constitution: Historic Places Commemorating the Signing of the Constitution, published by the United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service: Washington, D.C. (revised edition 1976), page 138: "Most of the [signers of the Constitution] married and fathered children. Sherman sired the largest family, numbering 15 by two wives... Three (Baldwin, Gilman, and Jenifer) were lifetime bachelors. In terms of religious affiliation, the men mirrored the overwhelmingly Protestant character of American religious life at the time and were members of various denominations. Only two, Carroll and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics."

Why are liberals always so angry? Could it be that reality, truth and facts keep messing up their lame positions? And why does religion cause such a stir? I wrote about multiple topics in my article and all you really get fired up about is my claim that America is a Christian nation. I think you protest a bit too much. And Demo, with your warped view of Christianity, I'm glad I don't qualify according to you. A Christian is a follower of Christ. Reading the Bible is not a requirement, although I do read it and very highly recommend it. Maybe you guys should try it.

Ted Haggard

Mead, If someone were to slaughter goats as a sacrifice to satan, how likely is it that they even have a pastor or would want to work with the youth group?

Ted Haggard had gay sex with a prostitute while using crystal meth, but yet he was pretty keen to keep his position in his church.  Vitter did strange things with adult diapers with a prostitute and yet he is pretty keen to keep his standing with his church. I could go on....and on... and on....

You can cherry-pick isolated quotes from men from the 18th C, but all that you are doing is demonstrating that those men held religious beliefs. (BTW, JQA and William Bradford are not considered "Founders"). that doesn't mean they expected everyone to share those beliefs - if they did, there would be one less Amendment in the Bill of Rights. Whatt they said in their private letters is not fodder for reinterpretiing what they they left us in the form of official public documents.

How can America be a "Christian Nation" when there is no mention of Jesus and God in the Consitution?

Why did Congress ratify and John Adams sign the Treaty of Tripoli which says America is not a Christian Nation?

Why is our nation's capital bedecked with Classical (that means "Pagan") temples and alters?

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Good luck arguing this point to the Supreme Court, given that the First Amendment directly contradicts the First, Second, Third and Fourth Commandments.

 

Sorry, America is Still Christian

Now let me get this straight. You point to Haggard and Vitter as examples of Christianity, and I'm the one cherry-picking? Mead, you are clearly an intelligent and articulate person, and you have made some intersesting, sometimes compelling arguments. This just isn't one of them.

We can argue ad finitum about whether the Founders were Christians, Deists, atheists, or something else, or whether it really matters either way. I believe the overwhelming evidence suggests strongly that the majority were Christian and that their faith influenced their thinking. But that isn't really the core issue.

The Ten Commandments adorn the Supreme Court Building, and there are many, many well documented open displays referrencing America's Christian heritage on our public buildings and areas. The first four commandments are God's instructions to His people, namely, we are to have no God's before Him, we are not to make nor worship idols, we are to have great reverence for His name, and we are to keep the Sabbath holy, as a day set aside for worship and rest. The first amendment keeps the state from establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, and provides for freedom of speech and peaceful assembly. I believe part your "contradiction" argument is that the state mandates free speech, while God says we are not to take His name in vain (a "restriction"). That's a stretch, especially in light of the speech restriction regarding the first amendment. Everything is not allowable. There is no conflict, no contradiction.

Still, you and many others have really missed the point. You haven't acknowledged the premise behind the claim that America is in fact a Christian nation. America isn't Christian because our laws mandate it, or because our fore fathers wrote it into our founding documents. They had the wisdom to carefully avoid any state mandated religion, which is why secularists approve of the documents. Christians as well as other faiths also approve, precisely because it is not mandated. The reason Jesus isn't mentioned in our founding documents is because our Founders were wise men. They knew that matters of faith needed to be matters of the heart, and not matters of the state. America isn't Christian because we do or don't have religious symbols or references on our public buildings.

No, America isn't Christian because she has to be, but because she chooses to be. Between 80 to 85% of adult Americans identify themselves with Christianity. 10 to 15% don't affiliate themselves with any organized religion. The rest are split over various other religions. So America is a Christian nation because her people have chosen for her to be. You may not be in that group, and you may not like that fact, but it is what it is. Some are more active and some are more vocal, but ours is not to judge matters of the spirit. America's citizens have closely identified themselves, by choice, as Christians since our founding, and to this day.

And by the way, you have not been written off. There will come a time when it is too late, but not yet.

 

America is a white, male nation?

I bring up Haggard and Vitter only becasue you are pretending that it is inconceivable that someone would do something that violates the strictures of a church but yet still want to be active in that church.

I'm sure that overwhelming majority of the Founders would have considered themselves Christian - but that doesn't mean that they created a "Christian Nation". If that is what they had intended, we'd find the Christian God in the Consitution.

The Founders were also all white, and male; something like one quarter or one half of them were known Free Masons; but I don't see anyone arguing that we are a "White Male Anglo Saxon Nation" or a "Free Mason Nation".

It is simply not true that the 10 Commandments "adorn the Supreme Court Building". You will not find the text of the 10 Commandments on display, anywhere. You will find Moses and some tablets, but just becasue he is one of many lawgivers depicted. Also shown: Hammurabi, Confucius, Mohammed,  Napoleon.  Don't believe every bit of rubbish your fundy friends email you.

You can probably find more Freemason symbolism in Capitol buildings than Christian. (Interesting, the world "capitol" derrives from the location of the temple of Jupiter in Rome. And, of course, there is tons of neo-Classicial (i.e. "pagan") imagary all over DC. So if we are going to take the criteria that your propose - that the decisions of architects and decorates define the country's natures - then America is a Pagan Nation!

I have noted that the Bill of Rights invalidates the first four Commandments. You note that

The first four commandments are God's instructions to His people

It therefore follows that the Bill of Rights establishs that God's people and the American citizenery are not one and the same. You yourself are now providing evidence that the Founder's did not intend America to be a Christian nation.

Regarding religious obserance: only about a quarter of Americans actually attend church weekly.  The numbers you've quoted wildly overstate the case.

But lets pretend that an overwhelming majority of Americans do choose to follow the Christian faith in their private life. That does not make America a Christian nation.  Consider the number of our laws that contradict Christian teaching. Abortion is legal. Divorce is not just legal but easy. Anti-blasphamey laws are considered unconstitutional prior restraint on freedom of speech. 

Shall we all "keep holy the Sabbath" by prohibiting Sunday shopping and the NFL? Good luck with that.

If we all followed the commandement against "coveting goods", then our entire economy would collapse before our eyes. Our laws provide justice and protection for all, not just those who are Christian.

Our Constitution seperates Church and State - and our citizens make a distinction between the private and public, becasue we are a secular nation.

Who's This 'We?"

Is it the American people who voted in Barack Obama to change this country for the better instead of sitting on their ass and crowing about past glory.

I don't understand, "AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY." So what. Obviously, the founders recognized the danger of religious zealots and thought it was important that NO state religion be established. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

I don't understand, "WE WANT OUR COUNTRY BACK!" Hey, buddy, I didn't realize Teabaggers, Birthers and Cons 'owned' this country. Nobody owns this country. You get to set the direction by winning elections.

I don't understand, "SHOW ME WHERE UNIVERSAL HEALTH IS IN THE CONSITUTION?!" Hey, buddy, read the Constitution, Article 1, Section 8: says, "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare..."

Todd loves lying...

Is it the American people who voted in Barack Obama to change this country for the better...

Um, no ToddLovesLying... the American people were frauded out of an honest election return by the Obama pals in ACORN and SEIU frauding and manufacturing vote tallies in hand with uber-corrupt big city Democrat pols and election officials in Chicago, Detroit, Philley, Atlanta, SF, LA and lots of other corrupted cities controlled for the Democrat Party.

To my mind, we are a Christian Nation, under God, dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.  We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.  It's why Presidents take the oath of office while their hand rests on a Bible.  It's why people are so concerned about the real faith of Barry Obama given he never attends church nor is ever seen praying... except for those few instances when he needed another 50,000 votes out of Detroit or 35,000 votes out of New Orleans on Election Night.

The rights we have as Americans, our Founding Fathers held, came from God.  Not the secular humanists.  Not the wiccans.  From God... who is male, btw.  And, frankly, not very happy with your tone, your insolence and callous disregard for his Power and Wisdom.  He's already written off Mead50... you don't want to go there with him.

 

Oh Noes!

He's already written off Mead50... you don't want to go there with him.

Oh Noes! Shall I send a big check to Pat Robertson to keep him from smiting me? Or maybe sign on to the campaign by the thrice-divorced New Gingrigh to "keep mariage sacred" (joined, of course, by Sanford, Vitter and Ensign)?

Why would God have a gender? What possible use would it be?

Don't you think he is going to be pissed at you for presuming to speak for him, and make threats in his name?

The rights we have as Americans, our Founding Fathers held, came from God.

Actually, the rights you have are derrive from the Consitution, and it comes from "We the People", not God. If you ever take a case to the Supreme Court, you'd better go armed with the Constituion, not the bible.

Obama goes to church with the same frequency as that "great Christian", Ronald Reagan. In contrast, W went to church, a lot. Compare W and Reagan, and you will conclude that the success of a President is inversely proportional to the amount of time he spends in a pew.

As for never beein seen praying - oh dear, you need to dip into your New Testament every now and then - although I'm sure you much prefer the Old Testament:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

 

Mead50, your humor escapes us all...

Actually, the rights you have are derrive (sic) from the Consitution, and it comes from "We the People", not God

Ummm, newsflash for you intellect-jumper, the Declaration of Independence says those rights are God-given... you know, the most important document written by our Founding Fathers setting out the values that drive the American experience?

D of I clearly states: "... endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights".  Those are Thos Jefferson's words... one of those Founding Fathers the farLeft secularists like to point to in underscoring how non-Christian the Nation supposedly is in their highly-biased view.

You really need to watch PBS and CSPAN more a little less of MSNBC and MTV.  I'd expect your special brand of farLeft secularist lunacy from a freshman just entering a public university... but to hear from someone who purports to be able to discuss the critical issues of the day, wel, you're showing yourself to be an intellectual-puddle dweller, Mead50.

Sort of like when you contend above that one proof of the Founding Fathers being anti-Christian can be found in the "... nation's capital bedecked with Classical (that means "Pagan") temples and alters (sic)" .  That was either a joke or you're the joke.  Let's assume you were serious and that's your "fact" proving the Founding Fathers were paganists.

Umm, wrong-o again our intellectual puddle-dweller, Mead50.  The architectural styles of early American federalist period has zero to do with allusions or direct references to the paganality of greek and roman temples... it had to do with a strong influence of British and French fashion at the time to re-invent, re-create and model themselves after the DEMOCRATIC principles of ancient Greece and the REPUBLICAN values of ancient Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_architecture

James Hoban, a devout Roman Catholic who designed the White House and segments of the US Capitol --as well as other buildings in DC, Philidelphia and New York-- was trained in Europe.  He once wrote the Superintendent of the Capitol, "... let it be as grand as any notion or memory of a Greek senate chamber.  Let us step into it (the Capitol rotunda) and imagine Roman Senators arguing the greatest issue of the day and then you'll have what's needed for America's newest monument to Liberty.  By it's very presence, we link ourselves forever to man's first democracies".

Jefferson, who designed his beautiful home at Monticello as well as the Univ of VA campus and buildings in Williamsburg, wrote that the "...democratic glories of our ancient Greek brethern are captured in the columns, edificies, stepways and gardens being built in the New World by those who share the ancients' value in liberty...."

You can take your postulate that the Federalists' love of classical architecture was because of the paganality of the ancients... it's just more hogwash and nonsense.

Plus, it's just stupid.  And it ain't even good humor, my intellectual puddle-dwelling friend.

 

 

Oh my goodness

So now you are arguing that the Declaration of Independence is more important than the Constitution??? Earlier in time doesn't mean controlling authority.

Another thing: "the Creator" is not "the Christian God". There are many different names for God in the bible (more than 100); "the Creator" is not one of them. So, if Thomas Jefferson meant to say "these unalienable rights are bestowed by the Christian God" he would have used a different word.

And then, if he and his compatriots had want America to be a Christian Nation, they would have also included a reference to Jesus in the Constitution.

As for the capitol architecture:

  1. You quote a Wikipedia article, and then criticize me for being a poseur?
  2. If you bother to read what I wrote, you will see that I said: "So if we are going to take the criteria that your propose - that the decisions of architects and decorates define the country's natures - then America is a Pagan Nation!" See the part that I have underlined for you? It is a conditional clause that modifies the remainder of the sentence to demonstration that the statement contained therein is conditional - and in the context of the paragraph wherein it appears, conditional on a premise which I have already rejected. Maybe you should stop watching television all together and practice a bit of reading comprehension.

 

 

Mead50, yep the D of I is far more important

The Declaration of Independence, Mead50, was written by the very idol of contemporary secularists like yourself --your own Deist and Democrat Party figurehead, Thos Jefferson.  He wrote that our Creator has endowed us with certain inalienable rights and then went on to name some of them... not all of them.

Freedom of religion was one.  It's subsquently enshrined in the Constitution's first 10 Amendments known as the Bill of Rights.

The Constitution, my intellectual-puddle-dwelling friend, is the 3rd, 4th or 5th framework of how our govt ought to work... it is NOT the place where the Founding Fathers espoused our values and the inherent Christian nature of the American Experience.  In fact, by the time the Founding Fathers got around to writing the Constitution, only 6 of the original signers of the Declaration of Independence were involved with the Constitution.

Frankly, I'm not here to argue with you or others as to whether or not America was founded as a Christian Nation or centered on Judeo-Christian values.  To mind, it was.  In my mind, it is.

Secular leftists like you, Mead50, can debate it all day long and not convince even a thimble-full of Americans that we are the contrary.  When a Christian was last in the White House (Bush 43), 69-71% of Americans thought their America was indeed a Christian Nation.  With the flavor-of-the-week Celebrity-in-Chief now in office, that number is about 62%. 

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192915

Nine out of 10 Ameircans consider themselves to be collectively or individually religious/spiritual.  Secularism is the vanguard of a thimble-full few... as is those who seek to argue against God, against America's best hope to restore it's status as the world's Shining City on a Hill and against our Christian heritage and traditions.  They probably also belong to the ACLU --but that's a different story.

There was no need to include any reference to Jesus in any govt document, despite your claim that doing so is the only way to determine whether or not America is a Christian Nation.  Just ask your neighbors... 2/3rds of them will say it is.  You're a decidely vacant, albeit noisy, minority.  It's your problem, not mine.  We'll correct for Obama's anti-Christian, anti-patriotic, anti-capitalist impulses in the next Administration.

By the way, during the 08 race, Senator John McCain, a thoughtful, honest, candid public servant who often disagreed with the farRight religious wingnuts, was asked this very question.  He answered it this way:

I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation. But I say that in the broadest sense. The lady that holds her lamp beside the golden door doesn't say, “I only welcome Christians.” We welcome the poor, the tired, the huddled masses. But when they come here they know that they are in a nation founded on Christian principles.  

For me, the instructive point here is one YOUR side should learn, Mead50.  America doesn't only welcome Christians to its shores... it welcomes all because our Founding Fathers fought to insure religious freedom from political tyranny.  The knew our inalienable rights came from God, a Christian God.  Sharia law won't grant you those rights.  Budda doesn't envision you having inalienable rights.  Secularists like you are desperate to rape our Christian heritage from public spaces, high school textbooks and from our national pledge.

You ought to count yourself lucky to be able to express your desperate views.  As we know from the Whole Earth Foods controversy, if the farLeft secularists had their way, voicing public dissent with their opinions would not be tolerated... Christian Nation or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYX4_hNOdT4

And if I were you, I'd give some thought to having a deathbed conversion moment ready for quick implementation... when guys like you are confronted with the terminality of your excusable life, you often plead in private with God for a little more time, a little more joy.

Polls also show that a majority of Americans are

Creationists, but they are just as wrong as you are on this point.

Why does the DOI say "Creator" and "nature's God"  when these words are not used as one of the many, many names of God in the Bible? If the important thing here is "Christianity", why no mention of Jesus?

Why no mention of any Supreme Being at all in the Constitution.

The Declaration is emphatically NOT more important than the Constitution. It is a splendid document. But the Revolution would have happened without it. In fact - the war had already been underway for more than year before it was written! On the other hand, our entire system of government is dependent upon the Constitution. Go to the Supreme Court and argue a case entirely on the basis of the DOI - you will loose. The DOI does not create any individual rights which you can enforce; it is technically without any legal effect.

The Declaration of Independence, Mead50, was written by the very idol of contemporary secularists like yourself --your own Deist and Democrat Party figurehead, Thos Jefferson.  He wrote that our Creator has endowed us with certain inalienable rights and then went on to name some of them... not all of them.

Freedom of religion was one.

Please quote me the passage from the Declaration of Independence that names freedom of religion.

<Snore>

I'd surmise it's Americans like Jake that founders had in mind when writing the 1st Amendment. Smart guys. No established religion. Genius. I'm so glad I didn't have one sect's view crammed down my throat while growning up.

Pretty pathetic and delusional that you think the mighty ACORN stole the election. You'll never win until you understand why conservatives lost the 2008 election. It's even more pathetic when 40% of Americans describe themselves as conservatives. Stuff like ACORN, Christian nation, teh GAY, is what alienates the majority of Americans. Even now, while Democrats struggle to pass HUGE bills, Republicans have nothing but NO. I pity the Republicans because they can't reform when 50% of their party is made up of one-notes like Mountain and leaders like Rush, Glenn and Sarah.

2009 was always going to be a struggle for Democrats, 2010 when the economy is moving along (Dems save the economy from Republican incompetence), when health care reform is passed with no Republican help and when we've wound down Iraq and things look better in Afganistan, I like the Dems chance. We could lose 10 seats in the house and wash in the Senate and we'll still have a super majority. 2010 will be the Republicans last chance to avoid 30 years of Dem dominance and they are blowing it.

Stay in the mountains and out of the city, Jake. Everybody knows the sayings about New York, "If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere."

I was not arguing that...

Homosexuality is a sin.  I was simply using YOUR example of the S. Baptists excluding a church because the church wanted to use gay members pictures as part of their directory entry.

I simply stated that the S. Baptists made a choice to exclude.  Probably because of scripture stating that "thou shalt not lay with another man..."  In no way shape or form was I arguing that homosexuality is a sin.