| About Us | Contact | Donate | User Blogs | Login |
A Lack of Ideas Has Consequences
[Interesting post. Promoted - Jon Henke]
Winston Churchill once said that the best argument against democracy was to have a five minute conversation with the average voter. So it's no surprise that, despite Obama's promises of "hope" and "change" to the millions of average voters, the only "hope" is for the numerous entrenched insiders already filing applications to join the technocracy of rationalists known in the vernacular as the Obama cabinet. Indeed, Barack Obama, who promised the American people that his campaign was about "them", has apparently decided that the people best qualified to adjudicate "their" interests are people for whom "they" are a sociological category, not a concrete concept.
Perhaps more troubling, however, is the tendency for panicked overreactions from different corners of the Right, all of whom seem intent on proving that their side is blameless and that it was those bloody (insert rival group here) who let Barack Obama win. "Crunchy" conservative and frequent bete noire of the libertarians Rod Dreher writes sentences like "the greatest threats to conservative interests come not from the Soviet Union or high taxes, but from too much individual freedom", while liberal NYT op-ed columnist Charles Blow piously opines that the GOP should "return to fiscal conservatism and ease up on social conservatism" in order to win. And, of course, according to Rush Limbaugh, it's those damn "wizards of smart" and "elitists" who want to reject conservatism for Neville Chamberlain-style me-tooism.
One of the central battles in this interminable stream of recrimination is whether conservative ideas need to be updated to fit the times, as per writers like Douthat and Frum, or if, as Limbaugh himself would say, "the conservative movement does not need to be rebuilt." This is a false dichotomy, and it is tearing the movement apart needlessly. No conservative, with the exception of a few timid souls who are frequently embarrassed at cocktail parties (David Brooks comes to mind), likely believes that all the conservative thought of the past ten, twenty or even fourty years needs to be completely junked in favor of some new , hypothetical "conservatism". After all, what would an ideology built upon the destruction of an old model have to conserve?
What is at stake here is a question which should be common-sensical: is it a betrayal of principle to apply timeless principles to new questions? The answer is quite plainly "no." Of course, the question of which principles in the conservative pantheon are truly timeless becomes the next problem, and this question is what is really lurking beneath all the rhetoric about "updating" conservative ideas - an "update" in this case means throwing out the principles which the author finds archaic, whether they be the "oogedy boogedy" nonsense which is social conservatism or the "heartless, soulless" sadistic fantasy that is economic conservatism.
This sort of squabbling is, in its own twisted way, vital to conservative thought - so long as one frames it as a routine debate between two equally rational, if differently prioritized, groups. What is toxic to this debate now is that there is this absurd notion floating around that dissension among conservative ranks is somehow new, or that we are in the midst of some sort of cataclysmic fight for the life of conservatism - that is, if it is even still alive! Such a view of the contemporary right-wing world bespeaks a troubling tendency (especially in a movement based on trust in the past) to forget history.
Let's hit "rewind" on the story of the conservative movement and go back far. Really far. I mean, before the Goldwater campaign was even a glint in William Rusher's eye far. Specifically, let's look at the 1950's, when Russell Kirk's The Conservative Mind was still a brand new book, William F. Buckley Jr.'s God and Man at Yale was flying off the shelves and a Republican who described himself as "conservative on economic issues, but liberal on human issues" was President. Now, let's propose a hypothetical situation. Suppose that when Kirk published The Conservative Mind, a bunch of Irving Babbitt fans emerged from the academic woodwork and started hysterically accusing Kirk of being a HINO (Humanist-in-name-only) for daring to apply Babbitt's ideas to the issues of the 50's. "We don't need some reformist Michigander telling us how to believe in New Humanism," these hypothetical academics would squawk.
Nonsense, right? Well, how about another hypothetical situation - suppose that David Brooks and Kathleen Parker had been alive during Senator McCarthy's hearings before the Senate. You can just imagine Brooks's hysterical column now, can't you? How McCarthy is a populist demagogue who's "appeasing the forces of the hysterical right"?
Oh wait a minute, that's not a Brooks quote. It's from Pieter Viereck, a self-described conservative who once opined in his book Shame and Glory of the Intellectuals that "we need to take conservatism away from the conservatives", and who argued that Adlai Stevenson, the infamously intellectual liberal Democrat, was a more true "conservative" than Dwight Eisenhower! I guess some breeds never die.
But wait a minute, the libertarians might say, at least we had no illusions that conservatism was some Christian big-government wet dream, right?! Alright, I suppose one could make that argument. Hey, I hate it as much as they do when Mike Huckabee calls libertarians "metaphysically mad" and says libertarian doctrine is "political lunacy" and that "Christianity and individualism are at antipodes." Statist jerks like him never influenced conservatism in the good old days, right?
Actually, those are all quotes from Russell Kirk himself.
Of course, the social conservatives probably have their reservations as well. After all, libertarians today are so damn condescending. And besides, they're not real conservatives, like the old breed. Those old libertarians back in the day understood that it's not anti-intellectual to distrust pompous elites with too high an opinion of themselves, or to want to make sure traditional institutions aren't kicked around by judicial fiat. And come on, they can't have been as heartless and elitist as the current crop, right?
Okay, fine. You got me. It was irritating as hell when Andrew Sullivan said that "fear of change" was the mark of modern conservatives, and cracked jokes about how they didn't understand "the refinements of the toilet." And who can forget Grover Norquist's absolutely intemperate statement that social conservatives have "compromised with socialism and stolen its thunder"?
Never mind. Those are quotes from Friedrich Hayek, author of The Road to Serfdom, the 1940's era version of Liberal Fascism and HL Mencken, an infamously anti-Roosevelt columnist.
Now, I want to make a distinction. There's no doubt that a lot of what held conservatism together has vanished - the most obvious example being anti-communism. Unless the sole purpose of the conservative movement is to boycott talks by Slavoj Zizek, this element is obviously gone, and let's not kid ourselves - terrorism has been a distinctly non-glamorous replacement. It's much more fun to fantasize about liberating Moscow than to get excited about firing "a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent" and hitting a camel "in the butt." I don't mean to demean the seriousness of the terrorist threat - at the point where Iran can wipe out all the electricity in the United States, it's clearly a deadly and pressing existental threat. I'm simply pointing out that fighting terrorism looks like a less glamorous goal because terrorists are terrible at marketing. There's no Pravda, no giant statues of Uncle Joe, no endless lines of marching stormtroopers, no Solzhenitsyn. Moreover, the American people are clearly sick of Bush, and since one of the centerpieces of Bush's policy is the "War on Terror", the threat is probably an electoral dud in the near future.
So yes, anti-communism is gone and there's no apparent heir to its place. But so what? Is it really true, as so many liberals have taken to claiming, that conservatism was merely a disparate group of intellectuals with nothing in common who were held together by common fears? Is that all there is to this movement? I don't believe so. But I can think of a movement for whom that is the case, and it’s not the conservatives. In fact, I’m speaking of the contemporary progressive movement, whose adherents seem held together by only one consuming, reactionary form of hate: namely, anti-Bushism.
Yes, yes, I know that Markos Moulitsas and his friends would disagree. To them, liberals do have ideas – ideas about social justice, about personal freedom, about equality, etc etc etc. It’s ironic that these are the same people who are telling us that conservative ideas are out of date, since almost every policy prescription put forward on a left wing blog today is at least forty years old, in principle if not in actual specifics. The Democratic party, for its part, is rhetorically stuck in the 60’s and politically stuck in the 90’s. Just look at some of President Obama’s cabinet appointments, and you’ll see what I mean.
This conspicuous failure to generate new ideas on the Left is relevant not only because it can give those of us on the Right hope, but because it is a fatal weakness in the Left’s strategy. Moulitsas himself makes no secret of the fact that he is trying to model the contemporary progressive movement after the Goldwater movement, and even feels obliged to tell his followers to read books about the same subject. Indeed, like Goldwater before him, Moulitsas has pioneered a brilliant approach to political technology. But there’s something crucially missing – Goldwater’s movement grew up after 20-30 years of rigorous academic debate between the traditionalist, New Humanist conservatives and the small-government libertarians. Goldwater’s book, Conscience of a Conservative, was ghost-written by a participant in these debates. In other words, conservatism didn’t start with politics. Conservatism started with ideas, hammered those until they made cast-iron sense, and then moved into politics.
Markos Moulitsas and his brethren have tried to do this in reverse, a decision which may set their movement back years in the long-run, despite its current short-run victories. As Michael Gerson points out, the supposed progressive Messiah, Barack Obama, “is finding the limits of leading a movement that never had much ideological content” and is “wispy and indistinct” because he “brings no ideological vision cultivated in think tanks for decades.” This means that whatever the actual policies the hard-Left would like to see in place are very unlikely to get anywhere, precisely because their obsession with winning elections coupled with a fatal instinct to dismiss conservatives with rhetorical questions and ad hominem attacks has prevented them from seriously entering the battle of ideas, and thus has also removed their ability to claw their way up to influence. A lack of ideas has consequences, and those consequences will be especially damaging to the Left, since in the absence of any contradictory ideas, Obama will have nothing with which to re-align the country.
Conservatives, thankfully, are nowhere near as afflicted by tunnel-vision, as the current debates on the Right show. However, it is essential that, being conservative, we remember that these debates were not settled in 1964 or 1980 and are not going to be settled in 2008, 2012 or any other year. These debates are timeless elements of the American conservative tradition, and will probably never be resolved completely. However, another timeless element which we must also be careful not to forget is the fact that these debates have always ended with an affirmation of what we have in common, and for my part, I hope that such an affirmation will be short in coming, rather than preceded by eons of squabbles and mutual recrimination.


Comments
we need IDEOLOGY!!!!!
give me a physical break.
With the world falling apart, we need competence. And that's what Markos and his friends have been pulling for.
Your libertarian friends switched parties, while you weren't looking.
Ideology be damned! Let's go get something done!
On the issue of competence
this guy achieved a bit higher pay grade than Sgt. Kos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus
have you bothered to listen to kos?
There's rather a reason that he didn't make a higher pay grade
Everybody (or at least I thought everybody, maybe you don't know) knows that the people who get to high grades in the military are the ones with the courtly graces, not the battle savvy in peacetime. It's only when you have some actual survival of the fittest that you can promote the competent. (not to say that some folks aren't competent, even if they do attain high ranks... but it should HARDLY be assumed)
The Left does have an idea -- gov't will solve every problem
For Progressives, almost everybody is a 'victim', and deserving of special gov't help.
For every problem, their solution is more gov't. Which sounds OK in the short term, but it's up to conservatives to point out how it's bad in the long term -- AND to offer some better in the long term solution that still solves the problem acceptably well in the short term.
And I have to say that, with respect to the (Lib) primacy of Enforcement of Contracts, there isn't much to recommend having the Big Banks and Big companies all wait for dozens of months in bankruptcy court for some gov't judge to decide how the now-far-less valuable meagre assets will be divided among the debt-holders (and lawyers, of course).
Huckabee has populist conservative ideas to minimize the total economic cost of the prior misallocations of investment (too much into housing, and far too much into financial instruments).
Palin has populist appeal to get conservative activists actually active.
Romney has ... his own cash. He'd make a fine Car Czar, maybe -- but I prefer all insolvent banks and companies to start going thru bankruptcy court and for the gov't to be preparing Pre-Packaged bankruptcy deals, just waiting for GM or Citi or AIG to go belly up.
What the pre-pack Chap 11 looks like is one of the issues we should be arguing about, but aren't, quite.
constantly surprised here
now I am a moderate for likeing fthe free market? and here I thought I was a blueblood liberal! Good gollee, I learn something new every day!
Good government works. But there's precious little good government left, after Bush.
And it is best understood as a tool, not the be all and end all of everything.
There is no such thing as
There is no such thing as "good government". At best, government is tolerably mediocre. And that fact is independent of the party affiliation of the current crop of crooks in power.
A self-fulfilling prophecy
Makes just as much sense as "There is no such thing as a good stop sign."
Somebody put that stop sign there, and guess who it was?
It was a group of citizens, Americans, that got together and cared enough about it to do something.
Americans put it there.
Your dim view of government is, at its base, a reflection of your views of your neighbors.
Those are your neighbors.
Go talk to them.
They're really not that bad.
The people who installed the
The people who installed the stop sign weren't a group of altruistic, enlightened folks looking out for the common good. They were otherwise-unemployable unionized layabouts funded by state and federal make-work construction programs implemented to buy political support for the egomaniacal, power-drunk asswipes occupying public office. My dim view of government is, at its base, a reflection of reality, in which my neighbors have imposed upon me a political leadership that attempts to control virtually every aspect of my life and steals nearly half of my annual wages to fritter away on horseshit, in return for which I'm portrayed, alternately, as a vaguely Ebenezer Scrooge-esque figure counting my ill-gotten doubloons while widows and orphans starve in the gaslight outside the windows of my palatial townhouse; or a psychotic who's subordinated moral objections to violence to a fetishization of firearms.
They're my neighbors. They're a bunch of thieves, scoundrels, ignoramuses, busybodies, and control freaks who I wouldn't trust to sit the right way on a toilet seat; talking to them, and having to listen to their insane drivel, is entirely out of the question unless they care to compensate me in lucre for the waste of my time and the brain cells of mine that they'll kill. So long as they're demonstrably incapable of leaving me the fuck alone and keeping their fucking hands off my stuff, they really are that bad.
That was nice
Really.
Currently, I am working with a group of fellows from Tennessee. Most of these men served an apprenticeship with the TVA.
We are working in Milwaukee. That's a 12-hr drive away from their home for them. I'm only a 9-hr drive away from my home.
One fellow, Ken, hasn't been home since July. He had an injury that kept him home a few months earlier this year. Before that, he was working in St. Paul.
Really, these people from the TVA are some of the most knowledgeable, well-trained people I have ever worked with--ever. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them.
But really, most of them would agree with the moajority of your statement.
Often I denounce the ignorance, but on this occasion, and due, perhaps, to the thoroughnessof your denouncement, I offer you this truth:
There are at least 3 types of organizations which are known as 'unions,' and all of them are not the same.
There are the compulsory unions that involve a specific industry. These include the state & government workers. They have very little voice, pay mandatory dues, and tend to have a very weak steward. They are tools that believe htat they have union representation, when really they have none.
Then there are the shop-specific unions. These are the auto workers and the steel workers, etc. They are tied to one company. I withhold from judgements on these, as I have little first-hand experience. But let's say that my view of them is rather low.
Then there are the trade unions. These are the carpenters, the insulators, the plumbers, etc. They tend to work for a project rather than a company. To me, that's the real front-line of unionization.
These are the stalwarts of conservative ideology. These are the Daniel Boones & Davy Crocketts of our time. They do what is good, right, moral, and proper, and without any reward, but only derision. You don't understand them, and you don't care to understand. You simply enjoy the fruits of their labor. You suck from the teats of the underbelly, all the while denouncing the belly as a whole.
It would serve you well to develop a sense of differentiation.
ProgTrad, Look, despite the
ProgTrad,
Look, despite the frustration you read on this website, I doubt very much that anyone with even the barest scrap of economic knowledge would suggest that unions ought to be outlawed or some such nonsense. Before the New Deal, unions provided a lot of what we think of as welfare services now, and they do provide a valuable counterweight to the producing forces, which ensures stability in a market system.
What people object to here is the suggestion that we should favor unions over producers, when both sides have their share of grievances to levy against the other. I think most of us would prefer that government be neutral in this respect, since siding with either group produces distortions (see Britain in 1979 for the union example of this, and...well, the modern day for the producer example). Letting either unions or corporations get too much political leverage is dangerous, but I would suggest to you that the reason these groups try to get it in the first place is because the Government no longer behaves like the impartial referee it was prior to the New Deal. Now everyone wants their slice of the welfare pie, whether it's union welfare or corporate welfare, and that leads to horrid corruption. I hope you agree.
I admire the calm of your demeanor
But, as stated there, the concerns are misplaced.
To help you to understand this a bit better, consider how the contracts of those three different groups are negotiated.
The first has their wages assigned by law, whether legislative or administrative. They typically administer their benefits through some outside source. Examples would be state employees or teachers.
The second negotiates with a single company. They have their own benefit programs, and they tend to be really expensive. Examples would be the steel workers or auto employees.
The third typically negotiates with a trade group, such as a builder's association, mechanical contractor's association, etc. Their benefits are usually a mixture of self-contained and outside sourced. Examples would be carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc.
Negotiating with a trade group provides a balance not seen inthe other types.
Of those three, if you were to do away the the first group, I wouldn't be too concerned. Those are shell unions anyway.
The second type is known for all sorts of shenanigans, but they're on their way out. Their own excesses are catching up with them.
That third group is the one I really care about. They have a value added to their labor that the non-union shops can't match. Hiring union labor is voluntary for those contractors. Granted, those contractors often have their own benefit programs through the unions which they would then have to buy out should they choose to not be signatory, and most of those unions offer contractors loans at below-market rates through their target funds, but it's possible.
I wish there were some other terms for the sake of discussion to keep from throwing out the good with the bad.
I marvel at your capacity to
I marvel at your capacity to ignore 90% of my post while focusing with laser-like intensity on a single line which specifically referenced "unionized layabouts" in the context of a public construction project, i.e., your first category of unions. My post is conspicuously free of animosity towards trade unions -- though I had a good belly-laugh at your suggestion that anybody does "what is good, right, moral, and proper, and without any reward".
It would serve you well to develop basic reading comprehension skills.
You missed
Government construction sites are not manned by the AFSCME.
What's this post you're talking about?
Wondering if you're on the right thread....
Roadwork, such as erecting
Roadwork, such as erecting stop signs and filling potholes, is not done by members of Category Three trade unions. Here in California it's done by CalTrans, employees of which are members of Category One unions such as PECG and SEIU.
The original post, which you inexplicably continue to confuse with a full-throated denunciation of unions in all their forms, can be found here.
when it's done UNDER BUDGET and on time, then it's good
government. Same as any other venture.
Do you disagree?
Yes.
Why? Simple: Because any government venture necessarily distorts the market for related private ventures, and is hostage to political vicissitudes rather than market realities.
exactly how much do you want to pay for a survey of your land?
how much do you think it ought to cost for me to see a topo map of public lands?
They are free... Even so, there are private ventures that make money off of such a public venture.
I do not believe that there still exists any corporation which funds basic research, for example.
Do you think NASA should be privatized?
Market realities have led to 40 cents on the dollar going to denying people health care. Do you really believe that America, as a country, should be spending 15% of its GDP on health care? Will you grant me that occasionally the market can do wrong (as in too big to fail, among other things?)?
A free market would be a major corporation's worst nightmare. That is why they don't exist. ;-)
how much do you think it
how much do you think it ought to cost for me to see a topo map of public lands?
As much as it costs to produce, plus whatever markup a competitive market will bear.
They are free...
No, they aren't. They're subsidized -- created and distributed through the expenditure of funds looted by the government from the citizenry in the form of taxes -- which is altogether different than "free".
Even so, there are private ventures that make money off of such a public venture.
That's nice.
I do not believe that there still exists any corporation which funds basic research, for example.
So?
Do you think NASA should be privatized?
Yes.
Market realities have led to 40 cents on the dollar going to denying people health care.
That's not a "market reality". That's the result of the existing regulatory framework surrounding the healthcare industry, and the perverse incentives that it's created.
Do you really believe that America, as a country, should be spending 15% of its GDP on health care?
I'm not particularly invested in how much other people spend on healthcare, or how much the country as a whole spends relative to GDP.
Will you grant me that occasionally the market can do wrong (as in too big to fail, among other things?)?
No. I will grant you that the market does not always produce shiny-happy results, but that is quite different from the market "doing wrong". "Too big to fail" is not an example of the free market.
A free market would be a major corporation's worst nightmare.
Probably. Again; so?
NASA will never be privatized
Due to national security issues. We need capability of space travel, and this will only increase as more satellites get put up. Who else will be controlling our deathly robots? :D
I know. But the reason NASA
I know.
But the reason NASA won't be privatized isn't due to national security issues; it's due to the fact that politicians and bureaucrats have a stake in its continued existence.
Even if they didn't have a stake
It would not be a good move to privatize NASA. Alot of military functions run through satellites, and those will only increase. Unless you're talking about splitting up NASA, into the 'defense' section which the gov keeps and the 'civilian' side you can sell off.
Though to be fair, there are already companies looking to 'compete' with NASA, as it were. (Virgin is the major one, IIRC.)
NASA will never be privatized
Due to national security issues. We need capability of space travel, and this will only increase as more satellites get put up. Who else will be controlling our deathly robots? :D
so you're running after unicorns.
take care you don't get impaled.
If you put your ideology above our economy, above our safety, and above practicality, then to hell with you!
If you do not fund basic research, our economy will perish, moreso than it already has.
If you put your ideology
If you put your ideology above our economy, above our safety, and above practicality, then to hell with you!
My "ideology", as you put it, is freedom. Not New Deal "positive freedoms", which are actually government entitlements that can only exist through the coercive exploitation of others, but real, actual, meaningful human liberty -- the right to do as you please and keep what you earn so long as you don't injure or defraud another.
And yes, I put real, actual, meaningful human liberty above the economy, above safety, and above what mental dwarves irrevocably mired in the existing right-left political paradigm term "practicality". Freedom is "impractical" only from the perspective of someone who finds the weight of slave's chains comfortable and reassuring. I'm not interested in sharing your bondage.
If the free market fails to fund "basic research", however defined, it's a signal that the resources are being more efficiently and productively allocated elsewhere. The extent to which efficient and productive allocation of resources causes the economy to perish is the extent to which the economy deserves to perish; and people who've unwisely hitched their financial wagons to inefficient and unproductive uses can go pound sand.
glad to hear you're for universal health care
positive freedoms be damned! plagues spread most rapidly through weakened populations.
but hell, maybe you want to rethink your ideology so it don't dovetail with mine own, puchela?
Do me a favor and move to Russia, the anarchy there will suit you most marvelously! Oh, but don't worry if they steal your bootsoles, that's just them exercising their freedoms! (to my mind, theivery is not fraud, as you knew what you were getting into when you decided to bequeath them your life's savings)
The free market is a classic mountainclimbing algorithm. IT IS NOT EFFICIENT IN THE LONG TERM. There are better solutions than just taking the steepest route up the mountain, generally.
But hell, you'd love to see our entire system collapse under debt. Very well, you will deserve the coming misery! Hope you enjoyed your free money! The cancerous economy certainly did.
The absence of any coherent,
The absence of any coherent, never mind rational, thought in that response of yours is telling.
Run along now; I think I hear your mommy telling you to get off the computer.
RisingTide, This post and
RisingTide,
This post and your "Bristol Palin's rapist" post officially disqualify you from ever complaining about the lack of civility/intelligence on the Right ever again. Summary of this post:
"IF YOU DON'T LIKE AMERICA, YOU CAN GIT OUT!!!1"
that's ironman who complains of my cussing
Intelligence I can complain of, in spades -- though that would indeed say more about me for bothering to remain than about anyone else!
Civility? this place ain't nothin' to complaina bout in that regard. Particular denizens, perhaps.
Have you had the opportunity to see Jesus Camp? It is simply amazing what the Religious Right will videotape! I do not post comments about people without reasonable theories and evidence.
After all, why would the National Enquirer report that Bristol didn't want to marry her babydaddy?
Yes, I have seen "Jesus
Yes, I have seen "Jesus Camp." Have you seen "Expelled?" It's simply amazing what radical Darwinists will say on Camera! And it's simply amazing that documentary makers never ever lie or manipulate evidence, isn't it? What noble people!
And as for the National Enquirer...do you honestly think that's a credible source? Really? It's only broken one, maybe two, actual true stories, and those were only considered true after other sources had validated them.
I can think of three off the top of my head
including the Palin one, the Edwards one and the Jesse Jackson one. I believe that they were first on the scene and did the investigative reporting.
The amazing thing about Jesus Camp is that the footage existed in the first place (it says something else that they couldn't hire a competent fundamentalist to run the video room). Something about fundamentalists and keeping an eye on their flock.
Is there something there in particular that you found distorting, or are you just complaining about documentaries in general? I have found the Blue Cross and Blue Shield letters to be the most damning endorsement of Sicko possible. Ain't it nice to look at the other side?
Yes, it is a miracle that the
Yes, it is a miracle that the footage existed in the first place. There is footage of a lot of weird stuff. I don't complain that Jesus Camp showed it - I complain that they made it look emblematic or mainstream.
As for my complaint, I speak about documentaries in general. I happen to be close friends with someone who was trained as a filmmaker at a very liberal university, and according to her, documentaries always exclude evidence and use deceptive cutting techniques. It's just part of the nature of the beast.
And I was actually thinking of the Edwards and Jesse Jackson stories when I said "two." I can't speak to the Palin one, though having read it, it says nothing about rape.
my sources say that he had gotten two other girls pregnant
and was probably expecting this one to be hushed up. What I'm terming rape is non-consensual sex (nonconsensual both prior and during), not yelling and screaming.
I do not think that the practice of filming ones congregants without their knowledge is at all uncommon in a certain segment of the American population. Likewise, I believe that the prevalence of shepherds preying on their flock is higher in those congregations.
I think that it is more mainstream than you might think, as it is quite a lot more prevalent in the south and Appalachia. This is not to say that it is 50% of people down there, mind you!
I wouldn't be surprised if Moore's stuff was deceptive -- seems like the man. More theatre than reality.
So you say Love is the answer...
What was it again? Love and Hope?
And then you go condemning someone to hell because they disagree with you? That's grown-up for sure... (sarcasm).
You know, as a Christian, that's the last place I'd ever want anyone to go. And I mean anyone! Now I'm not so naive to believe that it's in anyone's power to send another person there, but I do think our words have a way of conveying our own depravity.
It seems to me like you have profound "heart" issues. That can be changed, you know...
nu, you thought I was serious?
He'll find his own way there, through greed itself, as it's becoming apparent to me.
I'm sorry if my bald statements ruffled your feathers, my persona on here tends to be a bit... flamboyant.
I personally believe in no such thing as Hell, so it doesn't bother me much to use common phrases.
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" -- sometimes sharp words are the best teaching tool. I only pray I have the wisdom to use them well.
"If you put your ideology
"If you put your ideology above our economy, above our safety, and above practicality, then to hell with you!"
And with one sentence, RisingTide proves the point of my entire post! Liberals don't have an ideology, are hostile to principle because they're locked in a perception that it's at antipodes with "practicality", attack policies for emotive reasons rather than philosophical ones, and are philosophically impotent as a result.
Tautological terms like "hope" and "love" notwithstanding, that is...
If I can measure it, it isn't tautological.
and you are self-contradictory. First you say that progressives are still using the old Liberal ideology, and now you say that liberals have no ideology.
I think that ideology oftentimes comes in conflict with practicalility. Would you really elect someone who would charge you a differential rate based on how many roads you used, adding such a surcharge to all of your goods and services as well? This would seem to maximize freedom and minimize government...
There's no contradiction.
There's no contradiction. You're simply misinterpreting what I'm saying. I am saying that liberals defer to century-old ideas precisely because their irrational juxtaposition of ideology with practicality prevents them from coming up with new ideological applications today. No contradiction, simply referring to different problems. I admit my phrasing was imperfect - I should have said (and this is what I meant) "liberals have no ideology that is relevant today."
And your idolatry of "practicality" is itself an ideology of sorts, by the way, though it is one without meaning. And I don't see any way to measure "hope" and "love" other than your vague post before, which says nothing about numbers, methodology or anything of that nature. All it says is that love can be good for someone's health. Wonderful! How did the scientists measuring this effect define "love"? How did they get a control group for this? How did these studies get carried out? Do you think correlation is synonymous with causality?
I suspect you have conflated sociology with "science", as I noticed you mentioned sociology later in your post. I am sorry, but sociology is not a science the same way "scientific socialism" is not a science. Economics is getting there, but it still has a long way to go.
And having just noticed your rather odd question, yes, I would vote for a politician who would do that. Tell me why I shouldn't. Please. Tell me.
economics is farther away than sociology.
though teaching people how studies actually work would be a good start!
Judging by the amount of articles on "interconnectedness" -- be that with partners, social networks, or with G-d... well, those are the metrics that people use when they talk about what shields against depression, among other things. Feel free to use pubmed, all the articles should be cited there.
Turning to practicality above ideology is a strength, not a weakness. those who are pure libertarians are little different from anarchists, believing that we will be better without any structure.
I've defined what I believe to be robust criteria that society ought to maximize. Now, from my criteria, tell me whether I am a liberal, a conservative, a modernist, or a libertarian? I submit that you cannot do it, and that you should work a little harder to explain what exactly defines an ideology, as it doesn't appear to be "goals"
Fine. I will tell you what
Fine. I will tell you what you are. Society should maximize "hope" and "love" (mostly through the arm of government, given your policy proposals). I actually can tell you what you are, though I really didn't want to believe it:
This is what you are.
I am not saying that to be childish or to insult you. It is simply my honest assessment of what your "ideology" (which is really just a bunch of Captain Planet taglines holding hands) will lead to if implemented. Don't agree? Prove. Me. Wrong. Logically. Not with this "don'tcha think" rhetorical nonsense which I have not yet seen you relinquish. Go ahead and try.
And by the way, try proving to a libertarian that society without "structure" is a bad idea. I dare you. Just try it. Waltz on to www.mises.org, and try arguing with those people. Have a ball. They'll be a lot less patient than I've been.
I do not believe you understand me very well.
If I can at the same time support whistleblowing and government improvements that increase efficiency (which should logically decrease the size of government), support entrepreneurship (
http://sagacioushillbilly.blogspot.com/2008/12/where-does-your-food-come...)
and believe in knowing and appreciating thy neighbor (where the FUCK does gov't come into that one? )
I do not believe you are characterizing me at all accurately.
But I suppose I should have no fear, you have mischaracterized me simply by looking at the current social structure that I support. You might be surprised if we were talking about something other than government, I suppose. Your attitude, though uncharitable, is perhaps understandable, if disappointing.
I characterized your
I characterized your political ideology as I saw it. If we were talking about something other than Government, I would reserve judgment until I had more information. I'm sure I would be surprised. However, I must make one more point - I still think an ideology is defined by goals. Your "goals" seem to me to be the creation of particular emotional states in everybody (I beg you, tell me I'm wrong about this). On that basis, I characterize you as I did. That, or you are simply confused about where your ideals will lead.
Mind you, I'm still interested in seeing what this theory of government based on "love" and "hope" would look like - for instance, how the two concepts would be quantified, how they could be maximized using Government intervention, etc. Of course, you might undercut your indignance at Bristol Palin's situation trying to define them.
Oh, and one other thing - I too believe in loving and appreciating your neighbor, though I think of this purely as a PRIVATE matter. I also believe the Government is ill-equipped to make that easier for me both because of what you call practical concerns. Practicality enters into everyone's calculus, but normative ideals are independent of the practical realm.
a government that intended to increase love
would favor more mass transit, regardless of the methodology used to make that happen.
either you can use the conservative or the liberal way of doing it (I tend to believe that the liberal idea would cause less public outcry, and a less severe dislocation in general).
Other than that, well, I'm currently stumped. Certainly it favors public schools, or at least non-segregated schooling.
Interconnectedness is a quantifiable thing that is separate from emotional states, though it may be closely tied to them.
When I drew up those goals, I was specifically looking towards societal goals that could be achieved in multiple directions. Therefore, it would be incorrect to say that I expect or want government to rain Love And Peace from on high (that's the church's business).
Hope, from a governmental perspective, I think is best defined by responsiveness to interaction. (as if we were on a first name basis with the government, as we are with internet or google. that's one quantifiable linguistical change for you!). That is to say, welcoming of ideas and able to change and correct itself, at both a microlevel and a macrolevel. The closest thing I can come to describing this is the entire agency that was created to baffle a soviet spy (it's the us gov't. they could afford it). There was a need, and the government conformed to the need. Likewise, a more transparent government might be able to spot evildoers in its midst, or allow freelance journalists to do likewise.
Furthermore, if my goal was to create emotional states in everyone, what of it? It is possible to have Kantian ethics jive with Utilitarian goals in my worldview. After all, you can't force anyone to be happy (and the relative self-rated happiness of people is remarkably stable, from what I remember)
A few challenges
Now that we're getting somewhere.
Mass Transit: I disagree that this would foster love and hope. Rather, I see it as forcing people to spend time together who might not otherwise enjoy each others' company.
Public/Segregated schooling: Absolutely not definitionally geared toward "love" and "hope," at least not if the studies on single gender schooling are correct. Besides which, there is an argument to be made that forcible integration will breed resentment among those who are being forced to integrate, and will cause backlash, which is most certainly NOT productive with respect to "love" and "hope."
How do you quantify interconnectedness? What unit of measure do you use? How do numbers figure in?
Who defines when there is a "need" for something?
"if my goal was to create emotional states in everyone, what of it?"
As long as you didn't intend to do it by force, I don't see a problem, but if this is your idea of what government ought to do, then there is a great deal wrong with it. It arguably would be an attack on human nature, a totalitarian venture, an attack on privacy/autonomy/liberty, a form of government-inspired thought-control...I could go on, but let's just say it would also be impossible and potentially tyrannical, much the same way that all other attempts at creating thought-crime have been tyrannical. Unless, of course, you're willing to defend the Soviet Union or Mao's China.
The Great Sparrow Campaign!
thank goodness that we have no reason to suspect that our country will go down such a route in the future, TARP notwithstanding (see? they didn't name it TRAP! ;-) ).
I believe that understanding (and befriending perhaps, but that is hardly necessary) your neighbors is an inherent good. In our society, we are ever increasingly remote from our neighbors, and I find that to increase misunderstandings and road rage. I think that mass transit would do a lot towards sharing public space in a more logical and cost effective way. For all the wonderful conversations I've had on buses, none of them were compulsory -- and yet even the sitting on a bus creates some sort of interconnectedness, a knowledge of your neighbors. I'm not asking for a return to a shtetl, but I think that more interactions are a net good. Naturally, I'm not saying that mass transit should be completely subsituted for other forms of transit.
From what I have experienced, those who grow up in a closeminded world where they refuse to even encounter other people's ideas are rendered infantile in dealing with other people, and freedom has been removed from their world.
an example:
A: You can't eat meat! It's a Friday!
B: I'm Jewish.
A: But you don't eat meat on Fridays!
Lacking the concept that there are other points of view, and furthermore the tolerance of other people's views, leads to substantial societal problems (lawbreaking among them.)
Interconnectedness can be quantified by number and strength of relations with other people (take a nuclear family, with two strong and one less strong connections, and compare with an extended family, where you might have four strong and one less strong connection -- two parents and two children, versus two grandparents, two parents and two children. But expand that concept to include all people you interact with on a regular basis, including G-d) That's my rough way of encapsulating a body of research where everyone uses their own measures, and their own thresholds for significant relationships.
I see government as being able to create opportunities, and facilitate good behavior, just as much as it can punish bad behavior.
Also, I meant to correct you. Neither Hope nor Love are emotions. You cannot detect either from someone's face, and hope in particular is a future-oriented mental state.
What do you think of government criminalizing suicide?
Don't Tread
In order to unify, we have to have one principle: freedom. Don't tread on me. End of story. If conservatives are happy to leave my wallet alone but want to put the government in my bedroom, stand in moral judgment of everything I do, erect Ten Commandments on every town square, or socially engineer society around a narrow definition of "family," conservatives are gonna lose people like me. (And you need people like me.)
The quicker conservatives learn that personal morality is the province of community and church (not state), the quicker we can pick up the pieces and start collaborating. Sadly, I think this internecine culture war is going to drag us through a couple of Obama presidencies.
(Then again, if I'm expected to make nice with Rod Dreher to engage in trench warfare with the left, I wonder if I might be better off as a lone ideologue in a sea of idiocy.)
most folks like you started voting Democratic in 2006.
No reason to change for Obama, either.
here's a site you might enjoy: http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/
I'm with you, the Republicans need to exorcise the Religious Right, and win the Libertarians and Professionals back.
oh, and end torture (at least public acknowledgement of such. i'm a realpolitik kind of gal).
Your
hatred of the religious is gonna be the end of you. Just realize over 3/4 of Americans recognize some denomination or form of Christianity. Its okay. The amount of kooks in the Religious Right are outweighed by the leftists POS's on the Left. They are just demonized more.
dude, I am religious.
I just don't tend to like certain selfrighteous folk... But that's a personal opinion. When they're stealing my tax dollars it's my right to bitch.
But you wouldn't know anything about that one, because I don't always bring it up (and I really doubt you have any clue who I'm talking about. here's a hint: not dominionists)
Deleted
Deleted
Deleted?...
Deleted. Why have posts been deleted here?