It's always tempting for those who study the American Conservative Movement to brush us off as a bunch of situational ideologues held together by anticommunism, and who were doomed to collapse with the Berlin Wall. Much as I believe this narrative to be wrong, it has an interesting point with regard to the fundamental nature of conservative criticism. That is, conservatism aims to "conserve." It has historically been a defensive ideology, which tries to beat back encroaching hordes by its nature. It was this defensive nature of conservatism which repelled the Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek, who once wrote that conservatism was "a legitimate, probably necessary, and certainly widespread attitude of opposition to drastic change" while also noting, perhaps sadly, that "There is nothing corresponding to this conflict in the history of the United States, because what in Europe was called "liberalism" was here the common tradition on which the American polity had been built: thus the defender of the American tradition was a liberal in the European sense."

We can quibble with Hayek's usage of the word "liberal" to describe the American tradition, but even if he is correct, by his definition, even "liberal" conservatives seem to still fight with their backs to the proverbial wall. Thus, when there is nothing to fight, conservative ideology runs into the difficulty of flailing at phantoms. As such, along with the question of what we are fighting for (what to conserve, in other words), we also have to ask what we are fighting against.

In this regard, I believe the modern conservative movement has become confused. Stripped of  communism, we have reverted to the most obvious option and decided that liberalism is not only an enemy, but the enemy. This is an absurd belief. Liberalism is not the enemy. Liberalism (or progressivism, depending on your choice of words), at least in its modern form, has neither the spine, the principle nor the conviction born of that principle to be the enemy. Indeed, even in the days of communism, liberalism was never the enemy, even domestically. The Alger Hisses of the world, the Owen Lattimores of the world, the Stalins, the Kruschevs, the bought-off newspaper columnists who opined about how they'd "seen the future, and it worked" - they were the enemy, and whatever else they were, they were not liberals. The liberals were men like Edward R. Murrow, who was too busy being angry at Joe McCarthy to spare a few nasty words for the real traitors in our midst. The liberals were men like Dean Acheson, who famously said "I do not intend to turn my back on Alger Hiss." To be sure, these people were counterproductive, but they were only useful idiots, not the puppet masters pulling the strings.

The same goes for the strife on campuses that occurred in the 60's and 70's. The Eldridge Cleavers, the Huey Newtons, the Bill Ayerses, the Bernadine Dohrns and the Tom Haydens - these people were many things, but if you think they'd ever call themselves "liberals," you'd be mad. These people were radicals reacting against liberalism. They hated it. The only reason they got away with so much when attacking it was because of who the liberals actually were. They were the tolerant university Presidents, like Clark Kerr and Kingman Brewster, who dutifully caved in to every demand the radical exponents of negation made. Again, these people were not only counterproductive, but spineless and pathetic in their worst moments, but they were by no means the primary threat.

And even today, at the close of the war of culture and at the beginning of the war on terror, the liberals still cannot rightly be called the primary threat for a very simple reason - liberals are just too darn reasonable to threaten anyone intentionally. They're too obsessed with their own sophistication. Too blinded by their own (often imagined) intellectual superiority. Too "scientific." Too morally apathetic. These characteristics make them great toadies, but are poor qualities indeed to have in muscular ideological leaders. Throughout history, liberals have been at worst the battered wives of the enemies of conservatism, constantly protesting that their bedfellows are just misunderstood and that they don't hurt them that badly, while ignoring the bruises which slowly accumulate all over the body of civilization. If you want to look for the roots of this gutlessness, look at one of the founding members of contemporary liberalism, John Stuart Mill, whose faith in the power of rational discourse to change minds was perhaps the defining nature of his political philosophy. It's no surprise that his wife, a much more principled radical socialist, eventually ended up defining her husband's worldview.

To explain why liberals tend to assume this role would take too long, though I will suggest one option: for all their claims not to be superficial, liberals do have a shocking shallow and naive vision of human nature. For evidence of this, look at the contemporary liberal view of Sarah Palin, or the constant sneers that liberal comedians like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert threw at George W. Bush for "thinking with his gut." For liberals, human beings are defined by two things - their capacity for reason and their capacity for empathy. Sarah Palin, who believed in such seemingly absurd things as creationism, and who could argue with a straight face that she supported small-town values while arguing for economic policies which were (in the liberals' view) shamelessly royalist, appeared so severely challenged in both regards that she was unacceptable. It was inconceivable to a liberal that a woman who couldn't rattle off Supreme Court cases she disagreed with could ever claim to be a fit potential leader of a country, because liberals simply don't understand any concept of superiority other than the purely intellectual. Some conservatives have this problem too, but it's much more pronounced among the "reasonable" exponents of center-Leftism. Their sense of morals, being defined primarily by emotive urges, is far too underdeveloped for them to use as an argument against someone, though they may mutter about it among themselves at cocktail parties.

Now, I don't mean to suggest that an emphasis on intellectual capability and knowledgeability is at all wrong. It's entirely  reasonable, and quite desirable, and its absence  can be potentially disastrous. But it's not the only thing that matters, and making a fetish of it is sheer stupidity. Liberals tend to side with the enemies of western civilization for a very important reason - frequently, the people supporting it are just too...well, vulgar. Worse yet, tradition is very difficult to defend intellectually as an end in itself (I've tried), and most liberals don't like the idea that something as potentially irrational as human experience could or should be allowed to trump scientific rationality. Sometimes (see also: segregation) they have a point. But that doesn't mean you should throw out tradition entirely. In fact, as postmodern radicals are far too fond of pointing out, the rules of logic and reason themselves are traditions which have evolved with time. Liberals are thus trapped in a completely self-refuting argument - they are trying to defeat tradition using tradition.

But if liberals aren't the threat, then what is? Unlike communism, there's no concrete "evil State" for conservatives to oppose, so the confusion is understandable. The threat we conservatives face today is something much more abstract, much more insidious, and doubly dangerous, especially in the age of international terrorism and postmodern education. This threat, much like communism (the "second oldest religion," according to Whittaker Chambers), is also timeless.

With all due respect to Mr. Chambers, communism is not the second-oldest religion (the oldest being worship of God and his Creation). It's actually the third oldest. God, in creating the universe, had to do it by forcing an amorphous, "formless and void" existence into patterns. To put it bluntly, God created the world from Chaos, and as such, the worship of Chaos is actually the oldest religion. It is this force - Chaos - that conservatives now have to  fight.

And some conservatives - not the ones I usually like best - have recognized this threat, albeit incorrectly. Rod Dreher has written that "Today, the greatest threats to conservative interests come not from the Soviet Union or high taxes, but from too much individual freedom." With respect, I obviously disagree that individual freedom is to blame. The threat today comes not from too much individual freedom, but  from the wrong individual freedom. To explain this, I offer the following hypothetical:

Suppose that, in a hypothetical society, people had the legal right to murder each other, but no right to free speech, or property, or assembly. Surely we couldn't criticize this society for having too much individual freedom. Rather, we would reproach it for protecting the wrong freedoms. Mr. Dreher's argument essentially boils down to the idea that because corporations are behaving irresponsibly, economic liberty is a dud. He's wrong. What is at fault is that we have rampantly deregulated some elements of corporate life while keeping other regulations in place which punish small businesses and shield larger corporations from competition. In other words, we've created an economic system where wealthy "philanthropists" can defund peoples' entire life savings using fraud, but where banks are still required to give bad loans to people who can't pay them back because of a redundant, obsolete economic policy from about three decades ago. This is not a system that protects too much individual freedom. This is a system that protects the wrong freedoms. And a society that protects the wrong freedoms is doomed to slide into chaos, which is what Dreher seems to be rightly reacting against.

The market is a wonderful tool for social improvement, but like most competitive games, economic action only improves the world when the rules make sense and in our rush to deregulate, we haven't considered the effects on the whole system, which has made the market an unwitting agent of chaos and caused it to become the scapegoat for all sorts of undeserved blame. I'm no friend of regulation, and I defy most people who tell me it's necessary, but it's only wrong situationally, not conceptually. Most free market economists support antitrust laws, for instance.

But as instruments of chaos go, financial deregulation is the least of our worries. There are much more conscious agents of chaos floating around. I have already alluded to two - postmodern education and terrorism. But these topics are so big (and this post is already so long) that I will save them for later. For now, it suffices to say that conservatives need double their usual amount of creativity to fight these threats, and more than anything else we need unity. As I did in a previous post, I will close on a plea to all those who use this site to think about how this unity might be achieved.

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Comments

The problem with fighting chaos

First off, an overall entertaining post. I disagree with some of the ideas you've presented though.

From chaos, comes liberty. The more that chaos is restricted, the less liberty you will have on your population. Doesn't that go against what the Republicans are striving for?

Certainly, liberty and order are not diametrically opposed. For instance, police (order) help ensure that everyone is free to walk down the street without getting shot or robbed (liberty). But in many cases, to increase order is to increase regulation. As you mentioned, Rod Dreher points this out.

Does the failure of large banks mean we can finally get rid of 'trickle-down economics'? lol

Additionally, I feel we need both liberals and conservatives in this country. Without liberals, our country would be overrun by others with sharp pointy sticks. Without conservatives, other countries would ally against us for fear that we'd take them out (speaking of the new neocon party here, not so much the paleocon.)

What I'd like for the Right to focus on is how they can preach about 'freedom' and 'being conservative' while at the same time increasing executive power greatly over the Bush years, as well as reducing civil freedoms.

 

"From chaos, comes liberty.

"From chaos, comes liberty. The more that chaos is restricted, the less liberty you will have on your population. Doesn't that go against what the Republicans are striving for?"

Ah yes, I should have touched on this. I don't believe libertarians are striving for more chaos. It's just that they want responsibility and natural market consequences rather than government to be the check on individual behavior. How many times have you heard libertarians use the words "spontaneous order", for instance? Radicals tend to despise the idea of ANY order, even the spontaneous.

And I agree with you that many times liberty and order are  diametrically opposed with respect to regulation. However, as you also point out, that is not always the case. I am only suggesting that conservatives ought to be a little more discriminating about which is which, since sometimes law can actually protect individual rights (see also murder laws).

"Additionally, I feel we need both liberals and conservatives in this country. Without liberals, our country would be overrun by others with sharp pointy sticks. Without conservatives, other countries would ally against us for fear that we'd take them out (speaking of the new neocon party here, not so much the paleocon.)"

Don't you have this backwards? Anyway, I agree that we need both liberals and conservatives, which is another reason why it's silly to view liberals as the enemy. The enemy should be something you want to exterminate, not something you depend on to be a rhetorical punching bag. Also, for those times when other people might see as too moralistic and paranoid, having liberals around to expose that weakness is a painful but necessary situation.

Oh, and in re trickledown economics, trickledown economics is a theory that works in instances with oppressively high tax rates. Whether that situation is what we have now is a matter of choice, but I don't think it will get junked anytime soon largely because tax cuts are electorally very popular. However, I do think Republicans should try to get back some ground on fiscal responsibility in the next few years, meaning that maybe only the local candidates will use the tax cuts message.

"What I'd like for the Right to focus on is how they can preach about 'freedom' and 'being conservative' while at the same time increasing executive power greatly over the Bush years, as well as reducing civil freedoms."

Firstly, it's not necessarily true that increased executive power will  destroy liberty. I think you are correct in being alarmed by it, though, since power does have a tendency to corrupt. However, I think that if Bush hadn't squandered his political capital on a war which quickly became a laughingstock and a Leftist paranoid fantasy, there would have been room for his argument that terrorism calls for new varieties of law enforcement. Does that mean I like the reduction of civil freedoms? Absolutely sodding not! But as Bill Buckley said, sometimes you've "got to accept big Government for the duration."

With that said, I don't think we necessarily had to accept Big Government for the past eight years, and the voters surely don't think so. As such, I think the Republican party needs to swiftly explain that Bush was an anomaly, not the norm.

trickledown != tax cuts

Currently we tax the 100,000-250,000 income earners much more than the top earners (who pay the extremely low capital gains tax).

Reagan raised taxes for most people, but lowered them for the rich. This is classic trickle down economics, and it plays very well to the rich and to some brainwashed republicans who lack the capacity to understand that risk-adversity changes with personal security (sorry, I'm sounding remarkably bitter. you understand of course that I'm not referring to you).

I'm very interested in seeing how a party that when it was last in power before Bush eliminated the House Ethics Committee, can explain how they've established new safeguards to ensure less corruption....

I can't speak to your

I can't speak to your economic analysis about what Reagan did to taxes for the lower classes, as I don't have the figures in front of me now, but as for the House ethics committee, I would issue your challenge to any hens who voted to remove foxes as their rulers. It's a similar situation.

Which is why

I'm glad Obama raised so much money off small donors. I doubt small donors will ever replace big ones, but every bit more a group of small donors raise may make it easier for a politician to unyoke himself from a larger, unwanted one.

secondary point:

people care a lot more about things that they are personally invested in. gives people a lot more stake in the outcome of the election.

Backwards? Yes!

I did switch up the liberals/conservatives comment, but I'm glad you noticed that instead of doing the usual internet thing and jumping all over me for it. I don't even have the dyslexic excuse to fall on backwards, merely my own stupidity. :)

In no random order, some responses:

I'm afraid that when big government gets its hooks into something, it will not leave. Hence why I'm so against the Patriot Act and things of that nature. And it will be tough for the public to accept that Bush was an anomaly, when MANY Republicans (and too many Democrats) sided with him on key legislation.

The liberty/order issue is a good one to examine. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few issues that are impacted by this.

1) The "REAL ID" - Would it be unconstitutional to require IDs for certain basic rights like voting? Should a national ID be mandatory?

2) War on Drugs - Given that the War on Drugs does nothing, couldn't we increase liberty here without sacrificing order?

3) Executive power - Are we allowing too much power to those who could use it to spy on us? What of "no-knock" raids? Or a President's 'emergency powers' when the emergency has no foreseeable end?

4) Net Neutrality - Should ISPs be able to control the packets on their network? Or should they give each packet equal billing?

Most of these need to be argued for or against on two levels. One, is the measure effective/worthwhile? Two, is it morally/constitutionally sound? I see neither party arguing these measures enough. Usually it's all dogwhistles, and the noise to signal ration is far too much.

(Additionally, I appreciate the dialogue you're willing to engage in. It's refreshing to hear ideas from a sane yet opposite viewpoint.)

"I'm afraid that when big

"I'm afraid that when big government gets its hooks into something, it will not leave. Hence why I'm so against the Patriot Act and things of that nature. And it will be tough for the public to accept that Bush was an anomaly, when MANY Republicans (and too many Democrats) sided with him on key legislation."

Well, if the Democrats sided with Bush on so much and still distanced themselves from him, I don't think it's particularly hard for the Republicans to do so. Mind you, I'm not convinced that Bush's legacy will come out looking as evil as he's been portrayed, but in the near future, it's not impossible to look different. I agree with you on the Patriot Act and about big government generally, but I think that in order for big government to have any sort of mind of its own, it has to be made up of big government politicians. That's often the case, so I sympathize with your concern. However, I also think that  sometimes temporary measures are necessary, which will hopefully be so unpopular that they'll go away once the problem passes. Depending on history's verdict, the Patriot Act may be one of these things.

"1) The "REAL ID" - Would it be unconstitutional to require IDs for certain basic rights like voting? Should a national ID be mandatory?"

A couple of things: firstly, voting is not a "basic right," at least constitutionally. It's been part of the Green Party platform to try and make it one for ages, but it hasn't gone through. As such, no, it would not be unconstitutional to require an ID to vote. As for a national ID, I'd be a bit uncomfortable with it being mandatory, but I can foresee situations where it might be necessary. It all depends on how expansive the mandate was.

"2) War on Drugs - Given that the War on Drugs does nothing, couldn't we increase liberty here without sacrificing order?"

You know what? I agree with you. But casting it as ending the war on drugs looks terribly weak on crime. I think we ought to push for Drug War reforms which will hopefully make it focus only on the most dangerous drugs like PCP, Heroin, etc. I also think that if the Drug War was devolved to local/State enforcement, it might be more effective.

"3) Executive power - Are we allowing too much power to those who could use it to spy on us? What of "no-knock" raids? Or a President's 'emergency powers' when the emergency has no foreseeable end?"

This one would take a small book to answer, but I think it really does depend on the situation, and how much we trust the particular President in question. It also depends on how politically engaged the American people are, and we're not very well off there at the moment...

"4) Net Neutrality - Should ISPs be able to control the packets on their network? Or should they give each packet equal billing?"

Screw equal billing. I realize that's a bit more snappish than I usually am, but it has to be said. Screw it all to hell. If Congress thinks they're controlling the internet, I know of several online communities which will make their lives a living hell.

"(Additionally, I appreciate the dialogue you're willing to engage in. It's refreshing to hear ideas from a sane yet opposite viewpoint.)"

Thank you. Glad to hear I'm sane. Given that my posts have probably accumulated into a small novel by now, I had my doubts.

Responses

Regarding the War on Drugs, I agree that there's no way we'd end it cold-stop. I think the step that Massachusetts has taken (legalizing small amounts of marijuana) is sensible and I hope it is emulated. Far too much money is spent on people in jail that were busted for possessing/selling/buying weed.

The problem I see with not creating legislation protecting net neutrality is that deep packet inspection is invisible to 99% of the users out there. Let's say you have AT&T DSL, and when you try to go to Verizon's site it always loads slowly. The majority of users won't know that it is because AT&T might be throttling packets to that site. It's similiar in nature to the problems that Verisign had when they redirected bad IP addresses to their website. It's a lack of transparency to the end user which prevents them from voting with their wallets.

I consider voting a basic civil right, personally. While it isn't so constitutionally (obviously, as blacks/females were disenfranchised), I think most people consider it a basic right as a citizen.

If the problem with not

If the problem with not creating "net neutrality" legislation is the lack of transparency to end users vis-a-vis how a provider shapes traffic, then why not simply mandate disclosure requirements ("We throttle P2P file transfers because we consider them an abuse of our network resources, and we give priority to traffic from our advertising partner FOO.NET because they're paying us a truckload of money for the privilege.") rather than requiring providers to treat each packet equally?

This would be acceptable also

For instance, I have no problem with them putting priority on telephony or VTC packets because those are real-time. I can certainly see benefits to consumers for ISPs that would prioritize gamer traffic or P2P traffic.

you have the wall street problem here...

since not everyone can be a bank holding company (or in this case an ISP), you create conditions where every company could throttle differently, and actively discriminate against "unpopular" things like pornography -- or dailykos, for that matter.

How would you like it if Soros created an ISP where he would block all Republican websites?

I wouldn't give a single

I wouldn't give a single squirt of piss if George Soros created an ISP that blocked all Republican websites.  I'd simply not give him my business, which is the proper response of a consumer confronted by a company doing something the consumer doesn't approve of.

Creating conditions where every company can throttle or privilege content differently is a feature, not a bug.

 

"Regarding the War on Drugs,

"Regarding the War on Drugs, I agree that there's no way we'd end it cold-stop. I think the step that Massachusetts has taken (legalizing small amounts of marijuana) is sensible and I hope it is emulated. Far too much money is spent on people in jail that were busted for possessing/selling/buying weed."

Seems a reasonable enough policy, though I'd caution against using Massachusetts as an example. That doesn't necessarily persuade most conservatives...

"The problem I see with not creating legislation protecting net neutrality is that deep packet inspection is invisible to 99% of the users out there. Let's say you have AT&T DSL, and when you try to go to Verizon's site it always loads slowly. The majority of users won't know that it is because AT&T might be throttling packets to that site. It's similiar in nature to the problems that Verisign had when they redirected bad IP addresses to their website. It's a lack of transparency to the end user which prevents them from voting with their wallets."

I will admit that these may be compelling reasons, but my concern is more that once Congress gets its fingers in anything, it tends to think it can do other shit to it. I'm worried, for instance, about a sort of Internet fairness doctrine, or some such nonsense. The internet has been conceived as private property up to this point, and I'd like to keep it that way.

"I consider voting a basic civil right, personally. While it isn't so constitutionally (obviously, as blacks/females were disenfranchised), I think most people consider it a basic right as a citizen."

I think you're right about what most people perceive. However, I was simply pointing out that you're not going to get anywhere with Constitutionally based objections to the idea of making voting contingent on something.

arpanet wasn't private property.

Are the switching hubs privately owned? I think that a considerable number of them are owned by nonprofits....

Seriously, there are places like the EFF that would fight to the death to keep an internet fairness doctrine out of law. However, some simple legislation doesn't seem unreasonable, so long as we take care to inculcate our leaders with the idea that a free and unregulated internet is a good thing for their longterm goals (naturally, I don't actually think it is a good thing for those in power, but... we can teach them that it is!)

AGAINST THE KIBBUTZIM!!

nu? what schlemaizel wants to discuss the timelessness and utter futility of communism today?

Moshavs failed a lot quicker than kibbutzim, despite both using fundamentally the same agricultural methods. I wonder why that is?

Oh, and you have the wrong culprit with the Mortgage Crisis. I will talk to you again when you wish to discuss our forthcoming Cheap Money Crisis, as I believe that will be much less ideologically based, and more fact based. Oh, but do I sound like a whimpering Liberal!

The sources of Chaos in this world include Science, and I believe it is self-evident that we have gained more from Science than from Serfdom. Would you be interested in a discussion of the loss of inherent rights, due to the progression of Science? I've got an interesting argument on how privacy (and by extension private property) CANNOT exist in a society sufficiently advanced.

Oh dear

About this post, I will first say one very important thing: Belligerence is not the same thing as passion or ideological strength.

"The sources of Chaos in this world include Science, and I believe it is self-evident that we have gained more from Science than from Serfdom."

That is utter nonsense. Science is governed by paradigms, and those paradigms are hard to shatter. If you want to know what academic subject tends most towards chaos, literature is closer to the mark, and that is precisely what the exponents of chaos are trying to reduce science to: literature. I will touch on this in my post on education, but honestly, RisingTide, this is naive to the point of blindness. Science sends the message that certain things are unnatural and cannot be done. For radicals who hate things like natural distinctions between men and women, this is unacceptable! Obtuse! Racist! Sexist! Why has no one cast out this horrible, oppressive thing?

And do I bloody well need to point out that the scientific method itself is a tradition?

"Would you be interested in a discussion of the loss of inherent rights, due to the progression of Science? I've got an interesting argument on how privacy (and by extension private property) CANNOT exist in a society sufficiently advanced."

If ever you needed further proof that liberals self-refute...first you tell me science is an instrument of chaos, and then accuse it of producing oppressive order. Or is the destruction of private property and privacy desirable to you? And if it is, then how on earth can you be so hypocritical as to attack President Bush for dutifully following the wheels of history?

the internet is such a poor medium for communication!

I was laughing as I posted that, so surely there was no beligerence intended!

Indeed there are natural distinctions between men and women. Move the bell curve .3 standard deviations. Nothing more. It's trully preposterously wasteful to take the view that a woman cannot be a firefighter, if her upper body is strong enough to do the job. Let alone discussion of women in the sciences. But I rant, and tangentify.

Have you ever read the book Culture Shock?

I believe that the most effective opponent to Capitalism is not Communism, but Open Source, freeware development by amateurs. Like Christmas Ubuntu, started on a whim.

I accuse Science of requiring order. which is a good way to make the argument that change naturally produces chaos -- like teleporters, if you've read Niven's essay. As to whether destroying privacy is desirable? I'm not a pure Kantian, so I won't consider it in a vacuum. Nor am I a pure Utilitarian, mind. I can critique George W Bush for being both utterly ineffectual, and removing our privacy for Absolutely No reason, while allowing his rich brethren to retain theirs. Funny thing about equal rights -- they work for the rich as well.

Our current conception of Quantum Mechanics strongly suggests a complete reformation of Mathematics as we know it. If that doesn't seem chaos causing, I'm not sure what you would say does cause chaos.

Indeed it is.

"Have you ever read the book Culture Shock?"

No, unfortunately. Have you read the book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"? It's quite a good piece on how scientific paradigms change, even if it's a bit postmodern for my taste. It's also why I believe science is primarily a force for order.

"I believe that the most effective opponent to Capitalism is not Communism, but Open Source, freeware development by amateurs. Like Christmas Ubuntu, started on a whim."

Oh, nonsense! If Open Source is a threat to capitalism, then earned media is a threat to capitalism. Capitalism doesn't always require monetary prices to work completely. Open Source has different sorts of costs attached to it (Download time, virus possibilities). Open Source is, in my opinion, merely the next stage of capitalism. It's an even more free form of free enterprise. And, naturally, it has its own spontaneous order floating around. Hell, even some of the most famously subversive internet groups have "rules" (I won't link to them because I don't want to break any). Do they cause Chaos? Oh yes, but the good part is that there are advocates of order who can reform and fight back.

"I can critique George W Bush for being both utterly ineffectual, and removing our privacy for Absolutely No reason, while allowing his rich brethren to retain theirs. Funny thing about equal rights -- they work for the rich as well."

So deontology and utilitarianism aside, you certainly do  seem to be a moral egalitarian. Interesting how I could almost have predicted that.

"Our current conception of Quantum Mechanics strongly suggests a complete reformation of Mathematics as we know it. If that doesn't seem chaos causing, I'm not sure what you would say does cause chaos."

That does seem to be chaos causing. In fact, it reminds me of the book Modern Times by Paul Johnson, which talks about how relativity fundamentally altered the way human beings saw the world. However, unfortunately, because both Chaos and Order are timeless, Chaos wins a couple of bottles now and again. What is more important is how Order responds and picks up the pieces. I'm just trying to make us all stop holding our heads long enough to start picking them up.

your concept of self-structuring order

seems to fit my definition of chaos. so my apologies if we're arguing semantics unnecessarily!

Some of the most chaotic groups on the internet (Anonymous) have been founded as an experiment in the spontaneous evolution of language.

Glad to see we were talking

Glad to see we were talking about the same group on the internet.

Anyway, yes, Anon is something of an experiment in the spontaneous evolution of language, and often there is some sort of perverse order to how they behave. I can see how a group like them (or any spontaneous order) would look like chaos to you, but that is not what I am talking about. Chaos occurs prior to the spontaneous order, and is just as often an excuse for really horrible, animalistic behavior on the part of human beings. See also the Dark Ages. Chaos, as I've defined it, by definition cannot construct. I suppose what I should have said conservatives opposed, therefore, was negation. However, negation causes chaos when done at the wrong time, so the two are really interconnected. But no, spontaneous order is not what I meant by chaos. If I meant that, I'd have to argue for totalitarianism, since spontaneous order is what naturally happens anytime the State doesn't intervene somewhere.

when you begin to fight for the right of a man to

rape his parishioner, impregnate her, and then marry her off to a willing young lad... I begin to have doubts that your traditions are not in fact self-serving justfications.

but hell, i'm a liberal, so apparently the emotional part of that argument was an accident.

Did you ever wonder why sexual abuse is so rampant in the right wing of most religions?

Oh dear part deux

"rape his parishioner, impregnate her, and then marry her off to a willing young lad... "

Oh my, isn't this a cute STRAW MAN argument? Evidently you didn't read the rest of the post. You've have noticed this:

"Sometimes (see also: Segregation) they have a point."

I am not suggesting that all traditions ought to be preserved, but tell me something, RisingTide, why should your precious tradition of science or language be preserved? It makes me feel oppressed and stupid, and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one. Malibu Barbie would join me! She understands that MATH IS HARD. For too long we math-incapables have been shut down by the evil axiomatic bourgeoisie! C students of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your report cards!

And I'll bet there's no way you can refute this: asfjkalhwoie gaga klwhuckwok duiowhkd. See, isn't the loss of that horrible language tradition LIBERATING?

"but hell, i'm a liberal, so apparently the emotional part of that argument was an accident."

An accident? Hardly. It shows why your moral code is so sorely underdeveloped that you have to resort to accusing me of being an apologist for rape over a simple disagreement about tradition.

"Did you ever wonder why sexual abuse is so rampant in the right-wing of most religions?"

Did you ever wonder why Leftist dictators have killed more people than Right-wing dictators, even if you consider Hitler on the Right?

Hey, you wanted to be childish. Also, correlation does not equal  causality.

It's only a strawman if you assume that I was speaking to you

personally. But were I minded to be catty, your umbrage would be something I would find telling.  Laugh at that, it's sent with a smile.

Ĉi tiu plaĉas al mi

Change is good, neh?

The fact that I consider a large portion of powerful Conservatives to be morally compromised individuals does not mean that I hold you in such low esteem. Perhaps I should have chosen a different subject -- abortion tends to bring out strange aspects of certain people. I shall not recant!

Right wing religions provide a safe-haven for many sexual deviants. As these deviants tend to rise to positions of power, I should hardly be surprised if they crafted their religion to teach the young to submit to authority, and to satisfy their natural instincts to father children on as many nubile girls as possible (it's an odd thing about humanity that so much of the population is so disinterested in progeny).

As to the last, it is an easy question to answer. Population growth and Polish Pride.

This is one darned good post

I would say one of the ten best I have read all year.

But let's refine this a bit.

First of all, conservative thought is 'liberal' in the polsci sense of the term, as it advocates voting rights, individual ownership of property, etc, that would identify it as a liberal system.  So, we work within a framework.

Second, I disagree with the premise that conservative thought is negative in nature.  I believe this comes from the famous Buckley quote, and, believe me, he was quite mistaken.  Modern conservative thought is a movement that has a specific direction.  It is an absurdity to suggest that a motion is a non-motion.

Third, I am strugling to assimilate this concept of 'Chaos.'  Looking at it from various angles to see how workable that is.

Let's say, from the outset, that I am pro-regulation, provided that the regulation in question meets certain criterion.  Regulations must serve as protections; meaning that fairness and freedom from harm should be the primary determinants.

The need for such things are starkly revealed in the case of K-Mart.  Some CEO (I forget his name) basically ruined the company twice over.  His contract stated that he would receive some bonus if he could show a profit within a certain time period; so he closed store after store to liquidate the holdings, which produced a profit, a kind of accounting gimmick.  Then he took the bonus.

Companies need to be protected against such predators.

I guess that's what I find to naive in this statement from Friedman:

He [a businessman] has been hired by the stockholders to make as much money for them as he can within the rules of the game.

With (personal) profitability as the primary motive, there is nothing that would adhere an individual to the well-being of the company.  Likewise, with a lax regulatory structure, the rules of the game then become, Do what you can without getting caught.

When making the jump from economic to social liberties, it becomes much more entangled.  Granted, this is one area where the neo-cons have been a dismal failure; and the Bush apologists have fashioned the GOP into an authoritarian party.

Other than that, I can see the benefit of government intervention in stting policy of other nations.  In particular, the Japanese have developed much more efficient turbines as a result of their governmental regulations.  Now, they are going all over North America installing these turbines, as efficiency, especially in large installations, is economically desirable.

 

regulations as freedom from harm?

but whose harm?

The classic answer is society as a whole.

Only if society as a whole....

...meets the standard as an interested party.