Conservatism and Socialism

Liberals are much different than conservatives as people.

Liberals see the autonomous individual as the basic unit of society.  They are completely unable to see any form of moral authority other than arbitrary whim.  Simply because someone chose to do a thing is amply self-evident that the thing is perfectly acceptable.  It doesn't matter if it's painting masterpieces or molesting children in question-- Liberals find it to be perfectly acceptable.

Conservatives, on the other hand, view the family as the most basic unit of society.  They value roles of interdependent structures above the supremacy of individualism.  Unlike Liberals, conservatives are more socially oriented, and have a variety of institutions that uphold the social structure-- the church, schools, government (it really isn't the problem, as we shall see), civic groups, the YMCA, the Boy Scouts, Rotarians, etc.  Liberals see the supremacy of individualism as threatened by these types of groups, and the one and only structure that they are able to place any degree of credence in is the government (that's the problem there).

Now, for purposes of this discussion, the term 'individualism' is used somewhat differently than in common usage.  Ordinarily, individualism is seen as an affirmation, an expression of the person.  Granted, anyone that's ever lived in a farming community has known very conservative people that are very tolerant of personal idiosyncrasy.  Every farmer I've ever known has been chock full of personal idiosyncrasy.

But that's not what we're talking about here.  This Liberal type of individualism is, at its base, a denial.  It is the operation of the individual without regard for the context of the actions.  It is a single cell removed from the body and examined under a microscope.  It is an incapacity to grasp time and place (ie spacio-temporal determination) as a predetermined fact.  They don't know who they are; they don't know what they are; they don't know where they are; and  they don't know when they are.  The supremacy of their individualism overrides all of these considerations.  They know only choice-- arbitrary whim-- as the highest of all ideals.

(Compare to the One Commandment of Satanism:

Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

---from The Satanic Bible by Anton La Vey)

Also, the term 'family' is used somewhat differently here.  It doesn't refer to a specific family, nor to any group of families, etc.  It refers to the idea of a family.  Again, there are all manner of allowances made for specific instances among conservatives-- but there still exists an internal ideal.  And on a practical level, it is the roles and not the formulation of the membership that is more important to conservatives.

The irony here is that the value is inverted when held in the supreme position.

Simply because arbitrary whim is the highest of all ideals, the personhood of the specific individual in question is undermined.  There's a million more just like you, each of them with their own arbitrary whims.  One is indistinguishable from another.  Each and every thing is permeated with an essential sameness-- and this is done in deification of the individual.  The fact of the matter is that this is accomplished in a blank and air-headed manner, and without any degree of respect.  They really don't know how to respect.

It would be easy to say that conservatives are given to hierarchical structures.  Despite the truth of this, it fails to recognize the elements in interaction.

There are fundamental moral deficiencies which define Liberalism.  They rely too heavily on the function of society as defined by John Stuart Mill (the 'social contract') as harm/care and fairness/reciprocity dynamics.  They are unable to fathom the Durkheimian ethos of ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity; in fact, they have effectively negated the operation of such morals from the impudent individualism of their position.

And I mean this on a personal level, though the same dynamics may well be at work at a macro level.

Liberals have a diminished sense of loyalty.  Loyalty would violate the "One is the same as another is the same as another" view.  Loyalty would require the capacity to distinguish one from another.  Similarly, they love 'people,' but revile 'persons,' because they are unable to respect.  That's why you see such contradictions as the Left trying to save the masses (through the method of popular rule) by completely disregarding them (the 'elitism' of rational conformity).

"We on the Left are trying our best to save all you dumb, dirty, niggers.  That's why you should just shut up and do whatever we tell you.  After all, you can't expect a dumb, dirty nigger to be able to think all that well.  You might come to a decision that doesn't meet our approval." 

I'm not going to go on about the lack of the purity/sanctity dynamic on the Left.  It's too easy of a target.  The one point I want to make here is that it isn't so much that they are unwilling to demonstrate or acknowledge such a thing, it's that they are completely unable to perceive or to conceive of such a thing.

Liberals portend to speak for all of society by failing to acknowledge society as an organic construct and elevating the individual to an untenable position beyond the spacio-temporal determination, "dark, formless, and void."

Conservatives engage society more fully, with loyalty, respect, and sanctity, enacting the roles of the various units of societal structures.

 

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Well, I see both sides. No

Well, I see both sides. No one owns a theory or an economic policy that will be all things to all people. There are flaws on the left as well as the right. 

I see the right more involved with their religion, guns, constitution, and God and country and they have no idea in running a country. Case in point. Bush ran the country with tax cuts and then laissez-faire. I think the word laissez-faire may have a different definition in your mind than in mine. Every time Bush came to Ohio, he said "free trade is good." And then we saw our jobs lost. The trickle down did not trickle down. Just as much as people are leery of "change we can believe in", what in the world does "stay the course" mean? For me, it was running the country and the war into the ground while you had a president that was oblivious to the problems that were piling up. But in his own mine things were going great. 

 

Today, the conservatives are stuck on tax cuts. Now true, tax cuts help, but it cannot be the only policy. Certainly, cutting spending is needed. But there is so much more to running a country. And yet the conservative side keep chanting tax cuts (in which we have had under Bush and still today) and you look around and see the country, and you have to wonder what the tax cuts have done. Did they create jobs? Did it create prosperity? Did it prevent a recession? Did people move up in society? Now true, it is up to the individual, but when you see your town destroyed by right wing "free trade" policies and total ignorance, then I think I have something to argue about. 

The left does go too far in "saving" people. But there again, it has to have its place. We see Fox Conn in China having a number of suicides. We see cheap labor undercutting the American workers. We see the excess of hours worked in China for a dollar an hour and our jobs lost. Capitalism, while the best system to create prosperity, also has to take from someone. And it takes it out on the weak. 

I do believe, although the programs need to be fixed, that social security is the right thing to do. It may pay less than what the people on the right want. But what the people on the right won't say is that there are winners and losers. There are no guarantees. And you have to have some sort of safety net for all. You cannot become a nation of rich and poor. And we are seeing that now with over 2 billion cheap laborers in the world and that will put the pressure on jobs and wages for the middle class. I am for the middle class. And that may mean supporting tax cuts for the rich, but it also means, that good long term good paying jobs are created instead of making more people poor. In the past decade, I think, capitalism and the right has been failing the middle class. 

And there are policies by the right that helped destroy our jobs and middle class. And besides free trade, here is one on mergers and consolidation brought on by Reagan and the anti trust laws he introduced. 

Who Broke America’s Jobs Machine? | NewAmerica.net

And at the same time, the right is preaching gun rights, religion in government, and war, the middle class kept losing their jobs. Now I see a hint of ignorance and arrogance. Or shall we say laissez-faire. 

What we see is a republican party stuck in ideology and not economics. 

And today, on CNBC a question was asked, How do you create jobs? And of course the right wing answer to that is to stop spending. While true, it is just a generalization and means nothing to me while seeing our jobs leave the country. 

 

Of course, it's a matter of degrees.

First of all, it would be a mistake to confuse congressional leadership or tea party activists with serious conservatives.  The tea party is a loose collection of dabblers in libertarianism of the window-shop variety-- populism meets libertarianism.  Were the congressional leadership concerned with governing on principles-- even ever so much in the slightest-- we would see them busy advancing policy items, and we see none of that.  Let's not confuse noise with speech.

I was going to go on to the history of it, but the lassez-faire thing isn't too far off, but it shows more similarities to the robber barons.  That's the sort of thing that would incline a serious conservative as Bruce Bartlett, policy adviser to Reagan, to "[characterize] the Republicans as the greedy, sociopathic party."

And it's not really limited to the Right.  The DNC is the "centrist" pro-business group on the Left that advocates much the same free trade policy.  But China is substantially different from the Banana Republics in the sheer size of it, and the fact that it is a notable military power.  And there has been enough political stability for long enough that the production of goods has moved more and more away from the location of the natural resources.

Those are big issues.  They should be addressed.  It's just that those are outside of the scope of this article.

Of course, the structure of social security needs to be examined.  And of course, the casino owners would like it were everyone to bring all their savings to the casino, and those casino owners have their own advocates.  But when the discussion is turned away from such silliness to the real question--What is the scope of this program?-- we see the real difference at play.  Social security is, at its base, an insurance program.  It guarantees all retirees some form of income, and it removes older, higher wage, less productive workers from the workforce and increases demand for younger, lower wage workers.  All that's good.

Again, government is the one and only institution that Liberals are able to trust, and they trust implicitly in government.  Conservatives view government as only one of a great number of social institutions, one which is limited in its usefulness or desirability.

And so, the Left sees social security as a guarantee of self-sufficiency, of quality of life, and any number of things-- for the very reason that they view government as the one and only social construct which can be relied on-- and toward the end of producing equality of outcome.  Let the prudent be punished that the fool may be spared.

Well, if you're retired, then you have an insurance program for life that you don't have to pay a dime for.  Co-payments don't count as premiums, mind you.  Your house is already paid off, or you have no business retiring anyway.  So how much income does one really need without housing and insurance costs?  Is self-sufficiency really the objective?  And if so, to what extent is the government obligated to provide for that?

This is why Liberals were aghast at the partnership of government with private religion-based charities.  Here's an unapproved social institution (ie, something other than government) becoming stronger in their communities by providing a service open to all.

The material presented here is solely concerning moral judgments, and not economic policy.

Tax cuts have always increased Government Revenue

And Americans identify with Freedom, not Socialism.   We the people, not "you" the Government.

America is a center right country, with Socialist leftist wishing we were not.  But they're free to elect their own president, and have the freedom to fail trying to build a socialist Utopia, for the very first time in History.

Currently the Keynesian experiment of the far left is not working out too well, at all. 

 Like I say, you can sit

 Like I say, you can sit around and do nothing and that is what republicans are doing. China is growing at 8% and our jobs left the country. We have done nothing to replace those jobs. It means more people without jobs, more people on government assistance, more cities and states going broke, a loss generation as they fall off the employment rolls, and higher deficits a debt. 

Having loss jobs and seeing the country failing is not freedom. And republicans still have no answers. It is the same, same o same o.

As far as Keynesian, you have to do the right things, and Obama has missed a big opportunity to move our country forward. There can be good policies-if done right. Unfortunately, Obama did not have a plan, and you have politicians and interest groups that derails anything that comes along. But just as well, doing nothing as we have seen under Bush in which he said "stay the course" is how our country got to where it is. Our jobs are gone and even today economists preach that "free trade is good" while we lose jobs.

Bottom line. You cannot create jobs if you are sending jobs overseas. And by the way, we still have the Bush tax cuts. So, what went wrong? Where is the prosperity after all these years? 

And please don't go back in blaming congress or the democrats. We saw the failure of trickle down before the democrats came into power. The president still guides the country. Congress can vote for or against, but president come up with the agenda for the most part. Bush got what he wanted. It was trickle down only for the rich, our jobs left the country, our money went to Iraq, and our country and infrastructure suffered under neglect. And I would call that the typical laissez-faire approach that republicans live by. 

 Well, religion is not going

 Well, religion is not going to provide a job for people. There is an overemphasis by the right with religion and at the same time the rights economic policies are not doing the job.

If the right could see themselves. Look at Palin and Beck. Oh how they preach on honor and yet not one concrete word from them. Now this was about honor, so I do realize that. But even if you listen to Palin and Beck on radio and on TV and the rest of the right, they have nothing to offer in economic policy. No one on the right (except Paul Ryan to an agree) has an understanding to run the country. 

Boehner is on TV and says nothing, and they all say nothing. It is just about a bunch of hogwash on what is happening for the day. Whether it is about war or the mosque, about religion or gun rights or healthcare.  While all important to some degree, the average person still wants a job. 

We are tired of the preaching and we want economic policy for the country and for the middle class. You can roll up the far right (and they to destroyed our country) and we would probably be better off. We want answers and so far republicans have no answers. Now I have been saying this for years. Just when are the republicans going to wake up and get out of their rhetoric?

 correction on my

 correction on my spelling:

to a degree and not agree

And to finish one sentence:

and we would probably be better off without them.

 

While Liberals DO see the autonomous individual...

...as the basic unit of society, so does the Constitution of the United States of America.  Show me where the Constitution discussed the "rights of the family unit" as opposed to the rights of the individual.  I don't think you'll have much luck.

But the rest of the paragraph: Liberals see the autonomous individual as the basic unit of society.  They are completely unable to see any form of moral authority other than arbitrary whim.  Simply because someone chose to do a thing is amply self-evident that the thing is perfectly acceptable.  It doesn't matter if it's painting masterpieces or molesting children in question-- Liberals find it to be perfectly acceptable.

... is both ridiculous hyperbole, and more importantly, completely unsubstantiated in your blog post.  You can't find any single set of data (as opposed to single data points, which you can find anywhere to support any argument) that will prove those ridiculous statements.

Actually, I can

The blog post was written after I had spent some time in consideration of the research of Jonathan Haidt.

Here's his bio and here's his article, "What Makes People Vote Republican?".

From the article:

For my dissertation research, I made up stories about people who did things that were disgusting or disrespectful yet perfectly harmless. For example, what do you think about a woman who can't find any rags in her house so she cuts up an old American flag and uses the pieces to clean her toilet, in private? Or how about a family whose dog is killed by a car, so they dismember the body and cook it for dinner? I read these stories to 180 young adults and 180 eleven-year-old children, half from higher social classes and half from lower, in the USA and in Brazil. I found that most of the people I interviewed said that the actions in these stories were morally wrong, even when nobody was harmed. Only one group—college students at Penn—consistently exemplified Turiel's definition of morality and overrode their own feelings of disgust to say that harmless acts were not wrong. (A few even praised the efficiency of recycling the flag and the dog)....

The second conclusion was that the moral domain varies across cultures. Turiel's description of morality as being about justice, rights, and human welfare worked perfectly for the college students I interviewed at Penn, but it simply did not capture the moral concerns of the less elite groups—the working-class people in both countries who were more likely to justify their judgments with talk about respect, duty, and family roles. ("Your dog is family, and you just don't eat family.") From this study I concluded that the anthropologist Richard Shweder was probably right in a 1987 critique of Turiel in which he claimed that the moral domain (not just specific rules) varies by culture. Drawing on Shweder's ideas, I would say that the second rule of moral psychology is that morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way.

(emphasis is the author's)

That is a good point about rights being extended to individuals.  Not quite factually accurate though.

First of all, the Constitution does not grant any rights.  It can't grant any rights.  The rights are already there and present through natural law.  The Constitution serves only to limit the power of government from intruding on those rights.  But it doesn't create any new rights where none existed.  The rights were pre-existent to the document.

 

Well sure, but that's a dodge...

... I should have been more clear and referred to the Bill of Rights and other amendments to the Constitution.  Sorry about that.  But my point still stands.  Take a look and see if you find anything about the family as the defining autonomous unit referred to by our founders.

More importantly, you dodged my point on your hyperbolic claims that, to paraphrase, "Liberals are all down with child-molesting".  Reading the quote above, you're nowhere close to justifying your hyperbole.  While I certainly understand the use of hyperbole and have used it AND been guilty of using it poorly at times, I'd say that your use here rises to the level of outrageous.  Your words were dangerous and hurtful and, I hope, inconsidered.  I hope you'll retract them.

I think it's even more important (as evidenced by the intellectual level of some of those who appear regulary in the comments section of this blog,) since as you yourself admit you're oftentimes found in bad company on the Right with people with exceptionally poor reasoning skills, and persons prone to making statements that are certainly in bad taste.  This is not typically the case with you.  You're generally a well reasoned conservative (which I wholly respect).  But your claims in this blog post align you directly with those in your camp whom are far less considered and less considerate.

As noted, I hope you'll retract.

Stop the whining

I really don't care to get into some side-debate picking apart the meaning of the term "estate."  I don't find that to be particularly palatable, and I have serious reservations on the advantageousness of the thing.  I understand your point, and I disagree-- in that order.

I believe you have those positions reversed.  Once you understand my point, you are free to disagree with me.  Other than that, I'm really not interested.  You are free to disagree with the blank screen in front of you, if you would like; but as for me, I have no intention of carrying on a debate with a brick wall.

As to the apology, let me be clear on this:

No.

Not in a thousand years.

The statement is intended to be outrageous.  In terms of logic, this is a classic reduction to absurdity, but goes beyond to the logical fallacy of the appeal to emotion, also known as the rhetorical device of loaded language.

To take this as an objective statement of fact, it would be necessary to ignore a couple of very relevant facts.  (Again, as the article itself states, it is this very sense of interconnectedness that inclines me to conservatism.)

First of all, the tone of the statement would have to be ignored.  I'm not inclined to remove 'tone' as an element of writing for the purpose of accommodating some manufactured outrage.

Secondly, it would be necessary to believe that I really care what liberals think about it-- which, in fact, I do not.  The article was not written for their benefit.  They are here as guests and guests only-- and not invited guests, I might add.  And if one of them might happen to overhear something that hurts their little feelings, all the crocodile tears in the world won't change the fact that, deep down inside, I firmly believe that comes with the territory.

I'm not trying to reach out to the Left, and I'm not trying to change people's minds.  It's just that I don't consider such a thing to be important enough to warrant action on my part.

And sooner or later, liberals will have to accept that each and every thing under the sun was not put there specifically for each and every person in all the world.

I hope that clears matters up for you.

If you think my feelings were hurt, you're either mistaken...

... or I've mistated my point.  If so, I'm sorry.

I'm not trying to get into "some side-debate" here, ps.  I'm clearly indicating, and it's obvious to any one of the, well, probably 6 people who read these user blogs, that your argument is based on an entirely false premise.  You've made a leap of logic that can't be had.

It's great that you're trying to dress it up with rhetorical flourish.  Still doesn't disguise the fact that you've got no argument whatsoever.  Doesn't stand up.  Not remotely.

And before you accuse me of whining again, I suggest you review your squeamishness about not caring what "liberals think" and about the nature of "guests", invited or otherwise, to this site.  You'll have a hard time not noticing the open source nature of this site.  There's no test of liberalness or conservativeness to be able to post any old thing you want here.  That's because Patrick Ruffini and some of the other responsible for this site aren't afraid to air their premises before liberals or anyone else.  In fact, they have the intellectual wherewithal that's a standard in the western world - to air your arguments to whomever will have them and defend them against all comers.

That's the yard stick to which you'll need to measure up.  Your argument in this post, and the reply to which I now reply, along with my line of comments here which strike to the heart of that argument, do not measure up.

That's nice

Ok, how can I rephrase this...

I wrote a post about how Liberals are much different from conservatives as people; in particular, there are five dynamics on which moral decisions rest, and Liberals operate on only two of those dynamics.  Further, it is known the process through which this occurs; ie rationalization.  It is known that our education system currently fosters such tendencies.

I believe that some legitimate issues which arise from this would be, No. 1): Is this really necessary to diminish a person's capacity for moral judgments in order to educate them?  Can it be shown that this was the case throughout history, or did it just happen recently?  No 2):  If we know, as we do now, that these are indeed the effects of such policies, we can no longer claim that the effects are passive.  Whereas they might have been passive effects at some prior point, they are no longer.  This is now a chosen policy decision.

Instead, I see you try to draw the topic away from this, equating "conservatives" with the founding fathers, when I'm really not so sure that such a description could possibly be accurate.

Instead, I see you take a portion of a statement-- and this is one of two parts of a contrast statement-- and try to make it as if this were the entirety of the post.  It is not.

Very well then.

Prove to me that no Liberals believe such a thing, and I will gladly print a retraction.

I never thought of the "brick wall" observation, but it fits

Open discussions are great, disagreement of some degree almost always follows, but an occasional "consensus of opinion" appears. 

I prefer clarity to agreement, and discussion to silence, but sometimes its get a little noisy around here.  

Others just prefer Spell check and "well reasoned Conservatives".

 

Tax cuts = Revenue Increases, let me try again with facts

Michel Eden: Has studied the Subject of Tax Increases and Revenue (link) and he agrees with other un-bias Historians. 

In the Link you have to skip down to the Third subject or so, which is on subject with Tax cuts and the History of same,  although the beginning subject provide a basis for the conclusion. 

And the link has another quote from a Democrat:

“Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government.”

 

– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 17, 1963, annual budget message to the Congress, fiscal year 1964

 Is that all republicans have

 Is that all republicans have to say? Tax cuts. It is a broken record and we are living with the Bush tax cuts. Okay, you will say we need to cut spending. And I agree there. But nothing will work for our economy until you fix all the problems that have risen. So along with tax cuts we need to add another 20 fixes to our economy to make it work. And this is where republicans get it wrong each time as it is just tax cuts and then laissez-faire. You can't keep painting over rotted wood.

And no matter what remedy we talk about, there is a point of infliction where tax cuts, where lower interest rates and/or various stimulus will cease to work. 

Case in point on Kennedy. Tax cuts stimulated, but today tax cuts will not stimulate and not increase revenue, if you have other factors destroying that concept-namely globalization and the loss of jobs. And that is loss of revenue. And as long as we have jobs leaving the country, you cannot solve one problem. So, our main problem is globalization and the loss of jobs. Get that fixed and we can move on. 

The "record" isn't broken, it still works

Our "Main Problems" in Amercia are Pelosi, Reid, and Obama.

Two problems will be eliminated in November, and the other problem is already a broken record.