Should We Be Worried About Bobby Jindal?

DaveG has a conventional-wisdom challenging piece over on Race42008 outlining some of the shortcomings he sees in Bobby Jindal's performance as Governor so far. Dave frets that Jindal seems to be turning into a Huckabee, being more apt to compromise on fiscal issues than social issues. But the evidence of Jindal's fiscal apostasy is pretty thin, to say the least:

Behold, the broken campaign promise. Jindal recently signed into law a massive legislative pay increase in Louisiana after specifically promising not to do so on the campaign trail. I guess a 123 percent raise is justified given today’s gas prices. Or something.

But never fear, Gov. Jindal is not the sort of politician that will back down on all of his principles. Especially when those principles involve religion. Indeed, Jindal has just signed into law a measure that will allow public schools to teach something other than science in science class. Local school boards can now approve “supplemental materials” for schools to include in discussions of evolution. Something tells me those materials won’t involve the scientific method (because if they did, they’d already be there) and will involve lots of concepts that belong in philosophy, theology, and religion classes, not in science class.

If anyone is looking for evidence of Jindal the fiscal conservative, they'll find it in the six tax cuts Jindal has passed in six months, including the repeal of 2002's Stelly tax increase signed last week totaling $300 million in savings to the taxpayers. To say that Jindal has not has not governed in a fiscally conservative manner is a stretch.

It also ignores his record in Congress, where he voted against earmarks 98% of the time in the last Congress.

Speaing to Dave's broader point, at least in the short run, fiscal conservative maximalism tethered to social conservative maximalism -- a brand of politics Jindal represents -- is still the best way to reignite the Reagan coalition and get the activist core inspired again. This level of grassroots participation is an essential waypoint on the path back to real power.

That means we can't saw off the Huckabee wing, and those claiming we can need to be challenged. In fact, as I've argued in the past, George W. Bush's rise -- which most conservatives gladly went along with -- resembled Huckabeeism more than it did fiscal conservatism.

Successful coaition politics is additive. You take two different sets of voters and mash them together in a single party by simultaneously advancing an aggressive agenda agreeable to each side. Those trying to run Huckabee out of the party need to understand that a strong GOP depends on social conservatives, just as Huck needs to knock off the "Club for Greed" talk. Economic liberalism is extraneous to social conservatism, and Huck can excise it without compromising his core message, which is why I tend to worry about him less than most.

Intelligent design is not an issue I would push in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, but it is extremely popular in Louisiana -- one of the two or three most pro-life states in the union -- and by all accounts the impetus for that bill came from the legislature not the governor's office. We should not begrudge our own leaders for signing socially conservative legislation in a socially conservative state with the help of local Democrats.

Moreover, we need to push back hard against any and all attacks on Jindal's religion, not traffic in them. His 2007 campaign did this very effectively and showed how you can win these fights. This is important because progressive mainstays like ThinkProgress are already trying to soften up Jindal by rescusitating the 2007 stories. The attackers must be relentlessly exposed as anti-religious bigots.

The 2000 and 2004 elections showed that even socially libertine electorates will not begrudge a leader his personal religious beliefs. The sensible center understands that a necessary part of social tolerance is accepting leaders with very socially conservative personal beliefs. And they will give those leaders leeway to enact policies different than their own if they are seen as acting on principle.

So if you're asking me if we need to be worried about Bobby Jindal based on his first six months in office, the answer is a resounding "No."

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Comments

Louisiana

If he can resist being corrupted by Louisiana, he'll be a better candidate for sainthood than the executive branch.

I'm not surprised at the flip in perspective on Jindal

Mark my words..

There will ALWAYS be times when people of deep faith may do things not percieved as 'fiscally conservative' because it is the RIGHT thing to do for the well being of the 'people'. I'm not talking of endorsing massive big government proposals, but of smaller decisions along the way that can positively affect your constituency.

I know its an apostasy, but people should influence policy, not the other way around. It is why I am a Huck supporter. Sometimes you have to do the hard thing, even though it may bring ridicule and piss off those people who want to toe ideological lines at any expense..

You do the best that you can to be an idealogue, but at the foundation of governance should be the ability to step back and ask. a question like the one I'm sure Jindal asked himself.. "should these full time legislators who haven't had a raise in years and have helped me pass much needed laws to get the state on back on track, get a raise?"

A 'No' answer leaves the door open for under the table bribes and corruption to be more attractive than staying clean, to legislators trying to stay on the straight and narrow.

I believe Jindal is a man of principle and character.. first and foremost a servant of the people, not the elites..because of that, I predict that in the next four years, our 'conservative 'messiah' will be EXACTLY in Huckabee's boat. Beloved by the socons and quite possibly reviled by some fiscons, (the demagogues) unless of course, he wants the presidency so badly that he consciously decides to try to be all things to all people, and that is not a recipe for winning governance. (Ask Pawlenty)

I find myself mildly amused by these early attempts to justify and rebutt this initial wave of skeptisism of Jindal's fiscon gravitas. Mainly because any attempts on the part of Huckabee supporters to explain or justify any of his 'squishiness' on fiscal issues was met with a brick wall of blank stares and or rude personal attacks.

I wonder how many strikes Jindal gets before he is relegated to the same treatment..

One thing most christians are spoonfed from the cradle, is the belief that you cannot serve God and money (mammon) too. The struggle between the two worldviews was never more evident than in the stuggles going on in the base of the GOP right now.

And I really don't know how we fix it.

Maybe Patrick hit the nail on the head by saying we have to get back to a place where all of the branches can agree on acceptable middle ground. Trying to drive the party into ideological purity in one arena or another, will force members of the coalition out, and reduce the right to a permanent minority status.

Puhleez!

Jindal is just fine. He's caught in a bad spot in the legislature raise and he's going to catch heck either way. Still there can be no doubt by any objective observer that Bobby Jindal is a fiscal conservative, unlike the socialist leaning Huckabee. 

Huckabee supporters are really worried about Jindal and well they should be. The comparison makes Huckabee look very bad.

Both fiscal and social conservatives will vote for Jindal. Huckabee loses badly with anyone who has a basic understanding of economics.

One thing most christians are spoonfed from the cradle, is the belief that you cannot serve God and money (mammon) too. The struggle between the two worldviews was never more evident than in the stuggles going on in the base of the GOP right now.

And I really don't know how we fix it.

We don't fix it. If a candidate has socialist leanings on fiscal issues he's a no go for any fiscal conservative. I think you just identified why we aren't electing a national preacher. The country MUST have a sound fiscal policy in order to survive. Redistribution of income is a socialist/communist belief.

There is no way on God's green earth that I will ever cast a vote for Mike Huckabee. I'd as soon vote for Barack Obama and that has exactly zero chance of happening.

 

 

 

Accusation Against Huckabee Supporters

Huckabee supporters are really worried about Jindal and well they should be. The comparison makes Huckabee look very bad.

If we were worried about Jindal, why have Huckabee supporters been defending this guy to a man. Maybe, it's because Jindal really does represent something positive, and a really good leader who someday may be President or Vice-President.

I say Huckabee/Jindal '2012. Regardless, I won't stoop or allow this one-sided presentation of Jindal's record promoted by some people with agendas to stand.

Huckabee did not insitute largescale 'redistribution of income'

This is the favorite line of attack on Huckabee.. and one on which none of the 'explanations' is acceptable to hardliners.. so won't repeat them again ad nauseum.

Suffice it to say he's no socialist.

The facts showed that Huckabee governed as conservatively as he could, given the Clinton/Tucker mess he inherited, and a democratic legislature. He governed wisely, and the people and state prospered. That's good government, what we desperately need.

Socons admire Jindal, a lot, he reminds us of Huck in many ways, and we'll be thrilled to vote for him someday.. he may even be on a ticket with Mike..who knows.. One does not have to be a pastor of a faith to embrace and apply it's philosophy, and if we can't have Mike, we'll be happy to embrace Jindal.. anything to get away from this trend that seems to dictate that there should be limited place for people of faith in government. 

The bible verse that says we cannot serve God and Money too is talking primarily about greed, and self interest. We're talking about having the heart of an 'embezzler' here.. you know, the Enron types. Responisble fiscal conservatiism if it benifits all the people should be compatible with social conservatism, I and most traditional middle class social conservatives, just think that there should be a provision for human judgement to make a final call on policy, rather than saying its 'this way or the highway' every time.

If the rule of thumb is that the christian world view is not compatible with fiscal conservatism, then strike every true believer off the list for holding office in this country, and that's not the America I know. What the teaching does say is that christianity teaches that the love of money above all else including God, is not acceptable.  There are however, parables about the wisdom of investing resources wisely over hoarding, also to be found in the bible. There are ways to be fiscally responsible without going over the edge into selfish greed, but it feels sometimes like too many on the right walk way too close to that line for some.

Again, some will be willing to cut Jindal some slack now after 6 months, but the true test will be his record after say.. 10 years, like Mike. If he is as rooted in his spiritual beliefs as he says he is and it influences how he governs, fiscon idealogues will probably soon run out of excuses for any percieved lapses from the fiscal straight and narrow, and reasons to support him, to all of our detriment.

I hope not.. because he has the potential to be an amazing public servant.

I don't expect everyone to vote for a Huckabee type republican.. but there are millions who will. Maybe someday enough to get him into the WH.. GWB did it on our backs once already, and most would prefer a Huckabee over an Obama any day of the week.

This man sees the light--Huckabeeism is here to stay!!

Much to the above bloggers dismay, Huckabee supporters are not worried about Bobby Jindal, instead we welcome him to the fold.  He reminds us of a young, much less experienced (and not quite ready for prime time) Huckabee.  Mike Huckabee is visionary enough to see that Republicans have to change and his message is one that has been greatly and enthusiastically received by the people in the field!  What makes him a step above all the rest is his unique ability to connect with people and his oratoral skills, a Huckabee only blend of folksy stories, one-liners, and jokes mixed with plain common sense!!  If Senator McCain wants to excite the party, rally the vote, resurge the conservatives and add some fun for himself along the way,,,,please, please, please add Mike Huckabee to the ticket!  He's "the best HOPE we've got."

Huck's greatest political sin

Huck's greatest political sin was smearing economic conservatives for doing anything that might actually make money, and particularly Romney for resembling "the guy who laid you off".  Eat my shorts, Huck.  Even Bill Clinton recognized that you can promote economic growth policies and also try to help the displaced workers.

McCain does a lot of this too.  I'd like to ask McCain about the "obscene profits" in the beer distribution industry.  Perhaps he can shed some light on the precise amount of money a company is allowed to make before it is unbecoming.

Bush doesn't qualify as a real economic conservative because, as Grover Norquist would put it, he has a problem with "spend too much".  But Bush doesn't irritate the economic conservative eardrums like Huck and McCain do.  The difference is largely rhetorical, and Huck and McCain use the Leftist talking points to attack their fellow partisans.

I don't know if Jindal has a problem with "spend too much", but as long as he avoids attacking business with commie rhetoric he'll be doing himself a big political favor.

I actually agree with you on Huck's rhetoric

That rhetoric probably did Huckabee in with the fiscons.

The thing is, why, and when did he go there? In Iowa, everybody was minding their own business and selling a positive message of themselves until Mike took off in the Huckaboom and became a real threat to Romney.

At that point Mitt, with the full support of talk radio and other conservative media, went nuclear on Huckabee, in my opinion, willfully distorting aspects of Mike's record to reduce his appeal. What's a savvy politician to do? You use what you've got.. in rural working class Iowa, it was to point out the obvious that He was way closer to them culturally than the opposition.

It was rough and tumble, but so was Mitt's 'contrast' campaign. The Club for Growth was also openly subsidizing attacks on his fiscal record, what's he supposed to do, tuck his tail between his legs and run away? I'd call them out too!.. Look what not refuting attacks did to Kerry on 04. It got him beat.

It seems like many folks wanted to put a beatdown on Huckabee and then got mad when he dared to return a punch. When I look at his rhetoric post heated primaries I don't see anything that should worry a fiscal conservative who realy isn't one of the say..speculators driving up the cost of oil for a personal profit..

Pretending that there is nothing wrong with Wall street/K street will not get us the fiscal reform that the country so desperately needs.

Huckabee didn't just strike

Huckabee didn't just strike back at Romney and CFG, but he also made a lot of very broad based attacks on fiscal conservatives and on capitalism in general, and for the most part they were throw away lines without any serious mention of how the alleged problems he had identified were to be ameliorated.

For instance, Huck thew this bomb:

"CEOs get paid 500 times what the average worker does, but they are not necessarily 500 times smarter or harder-working, and that is wrong."

But what's the solution?  More government regulation?  No, it was a throw-away line.  And it is a line that furthers the democrats' agenda of redistribution and high taxation.

I think there was a line about some people having a "fetish" for free markets.  Come on now!

If we're going the whole way back to Iowa, Huck's initial claim to fame was that the social cons “were welcomed in the party as long as we sort of kept our place, but Lord help us if we ever stood forward and said we would actually like to lead the party."

Seriously?  More Christian than thou?  Social Cons are very well represented in the Party leadership (almost certainly a majority), and the platform is very social con friendly.  I think fiscal conservatives have a much bigger bone to pick with the party than the social conservatives.

free markets

I think there was a line about some people having a "fetish" for free markets.  Come on now!

Sixty percent of Republicans oppose the GOP's stand on free markets. Republicans, not even voters in general.  I'd argue that most of what the GOP does with respect to markets is not free in the first place, and that what people object to is not really free markets. But the numbers are what they are.

Not constructive

Even accepting those numbers, Huck's statements are not constructive, but destructive.

Destructive to the Republican coalition, destructive to national support for capitalism, and destructive to the long term success of our economy.

Startling numbers of people support "nationalizing" (ie socializing) oil refineries.  If a republican supported such a thing I would personally drag him out in the street and beat him senseless.

Free and Fair markets

I never actually heard the comment 'fetish' and don't remember a blow up about it in the conservative media.. but if it was said, I can almost guarantee that it was tempered with the discussion of the need for free trade to be fair trade. And it should.

How long do we continue this current form of free trade that penalizes american products and puts our people out of work? I believe in free trade between nations, but it should be equitable and fair. Find a way to keep our guys competative!

Maybe you should send Huckabee a "thank you" card

Huck's greatest political sin was smearing economic conservatives for doing anything that might actually make money, and particularly Romney for resembling "the guy who laid you off".

Huckabee actually did Romney a favor.  Michigan has a huge unemployment rate.  Romney's less formal look plus his promises of governmental assistance helped Romney win that very Democratic state.  

I will never understand anyone saying that Huckabee was "smearing economic conservatives for doing anything that might actually make money."  Huckabee was the only top tier candidate trying to abolish the IRS and implement the FairTax so productivity and hard work would no longer be penalized.  The FairTax could also help lower - middle income wage earners try to shoot for better goals; rather than being stuck in their intitlements.  Many illegal immigrants and drug dealing "sugar daddies" would have to start paying there fair share, too. 

 

 

There's a difference between populist and socialist!

There is a big difference between a populist [one who believes "we the people" are the boss] and a socialist.  A socialist believes the government should support those that are too lazy to support themselves. [Obama!]  During his tenure as Governor; Huckabee cut the welfare rolls and improved employment.  His office door was literally nailed shut when he was first elected as Lt. Gov. becasue he was a Republican.  He made many major improvements in schools, nursing homes, parks, infrastructure, etc. fiscally responsibly in spite of that huge Democrat majority.

Many Republicans claim to love Reagan and are looking for the next Reagan.  Most of them wouldn't vote for Ronald Reagan if he were running today!  He openly talked about his religious beliefs.  Reagan raised taxes as Governor of California.  He was against corporate greed and fought against the elitist. 

"Reagan laid out the argument that greedy corporations and their Republican allies were responsible for inflation that robbed ordinary Americans of their savings.  Though Reagan’s beliefs about the causes of inflation changed dramatically as he moved to the right, he retained the same basic populist sense that politics was largely a struggle between ordinary Americans and a selfserving elite."

Reagan won by a landslide because there are a lot more lower to middle income voters than there are wealthy voters.  He won by taking his message to the people.  If Huckabee's record wouldn't have been distorted by disgruntled former employees, religious bigots, other candidates, and the Club for Greed; he would be our nominee.

Obama is very charasmatic and many are gullible enough to fall for him.  McCain has committed to using government campaign finacing.  McCain would be wise to choose Huckabee as his VP and let Huckabee and his "netroots" supporters deliver the McCain/Huckabee message to "we the people."  [Yes, I saw Patrick on CSPAN.]

 

There's a difference between populist and socialist!

Yes Granny, point well taken.

John Edwards was a populist.

Barack Obama is a socialist.

Mike Huckabee might be closer to Edwards than Obama.

Huckabee should join the party that shares his beliefs.

No Huckabee!

Many Republicans claim to love Reagan and are looking for the next Reagan.  Most of them wouldn't vote for Ronald Reagan if he were running today!  He openly talked about his religious beliefs.  Reagan raised taxes as Governor of California.  He was against corporate greed and fought against the elitist.

Comparing the socialist Huckabee to Ronald Reagan is an insult of the highest order. And the populist claim doesn't do anything for me either. If I wanted a populist I would have supported John Edwards. Huckabee is in the wrong party.

Ronald Reagan supported capitalism. Reagan did not believe in helping people by taxing the rich to give to the poor. He believed in people helping themselves. He knew that government was not meant to be an agent of charity, the individual is.

I voted for Reagan twice and Bush twice. Both men were devout believers and it was a great asset to them during their terms in office, but neither man used his religion to get elected. Neither man attacked opponents for their religion in the shameless and hatefilled way that Huckabee attacked Mitt Romney repeatedly.

Huckabee was shameless in his efforts to use God, the church and any religious belief he could play on to help himself in the primaries.

McCain would be wise to choose Huckabee as his VP and let Huckabee and his "netroots" supporters deliver the McCain/Huckabee message to "we the people."

If he does then we can say hello to President Obama. But really, that should suit you folks just fine. He'll have his hand in everybody's pocket to give to the poor just the same as Huckabee would.

As it stands right now I will be voting for McCain. If he should be foolish enough to put Huckabee on the ticket, I will not vote for president, only for the down-ticket offices. Mike Huckabee will never get my vote. I would be happy with Jindal, although I don't believe that will happen, Sarah Palin, or any of a number of other VP candidates. Huckabee is a no sale.

I don't know if Jindal has a problem with "spend too much", but as long as he avoids attacking business with commie rhetoric he'll be doing himself a big political favor.

Yes, he will. I don't think Jindal believes any commie rhetoric. I just don't think he's ripe yet. :)

 

Huckabee is the majority choice

To the poster who said he won't vote Huckabee....you are certainly entitled to your very minority opinion, yet all the survey USA election polls show that Huckabee helps McCain's ticket a full 2.58%, Romney only .58 and Pawlenty and Lieberman actually run it negative.  So, you see, if you really want McCain to win, you would want the person on the ticket who can help it the most.  Obama is running way ahead and, believe me, Senator McCain is going to need that 2% edge that Mike Huckabee gives his ticket.  This is without Mike campaigning with McCain.  Once that would happen, the numbers will soar as there is not a better campaigner anywhere than Huckabee.  I had the pleasure of seeing him at the NC convention and the crowd was wild for him!!  Most everyone likes Mike (very few liberal bigots don't). Those folks who don't like Mike, would never vote Republican in the first place.  We will lose few to no votes with Huck and gain many votes.  The lethargic republican conservatives will "come to life" with Huckabee on the ticket.

Excuse me but...

...Lieberman!?!????  As in the same Lieberman who ran as algore's VP in 2000?  I'd say that would be quite a negative and I can't believe any sane republican isn't completely outraged at even the suggestion of a McCain/Lieberman ticket.

And somebody said Huckabee's in the wrong party?  Ummmkay.   I'm no big fan of the Huckster but I'd say he's way more republican than Lieberman. 

"Huckabee is the majority choice"?

Maybe not.

Romney tops McCain veep list

Surprising many Republican insiders, Mitt Romney is at the top of the vice-presidential prospect list for

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.)

. But lack of personal chemistry could derail the pick.

“Romney as favorite” is the hot buzz in Republican circles, and top party advisers said the case is compelling.

I don't expect McCain to choose Romney and I don't know anyone except the Huckabee posse here at NextRight who thinks he will choose Huckabee. The only evidence for that choice is the doubleteaming that Huckabee and McCain did against Romney and other candidates.

Still, I think the Huckster was used, abused, and has now been discarded.

NC is not the whole country

"Most everyone likes Mike (very few liberal bigots don't)"

Considering the only swing state Huck won was Iowa, I'm not so sure this statement is completely accurate.  I'm not in the "I will never vote for Huckabee" camp, but unless he can guarantee OH I don't share your ardor, since he will probably put PA, NH and maybe MI out of reach.

The sweet spot in the American electorate are blue collar rust belt Catholics, not Southern Baptists

Thoughts

First, Huckabee almost won Missouri and McCain has a huge enthusiasm gap in SW Missouri. Second, Virginia, Huckabee finished a strong 2nd and McCain needs religious conservatives to show up. Without Missouri, McCain will not be President, it's that simple. Also, Huckabee could help thwart Obama's Southern Strategy. Obama wants to challenge McCain in places like GA, NC, and VA to keep him from going after the swing states that McCain has a shot in like PA, NH, MI, and OH.

Secondly, Ironman why are people in the states you l.isted anti-Evangelical Religious bigots. Or did you not mean that?

Disgusting!

Secondly, Ironman why are people in the states you l.isted anti-Evangelical Religious bigots. Or did you not mean that?

And that's exactly the kind of attack that Huckabee supporters like to make on anyone who doesn't support their candidate.

 

No

Actually, Ironman made the statement, he just didn't label what he was describing as bigotry. I think it's possible for people to oppose Huckabee for reasons that aren't religious. But given the statement by the author of the Race42008 piece, it seems there are quite a few "secular conservatives" that are biased against anyone who takes their faith seriously.

Talk about discusting

It reminds me of supporters that can't find anything good to say about their own personal choice; so they attack someone else's candidate with something that has already been cleared up.  Isn't this site supposed to be trying to get the GOP on the right track?  Comments like this are defeating that cause.

attacked opponents for their religion in the shameless and hatefilled way that Huckabee attacked Mitt Romney repeatedly.

Huckabee was shameless in his efforts to use God, the church and any religious belief he could play on to help himself in the primaries.

 

Granny!

It reminds me of supporters that can't find anything good to say about their own personal choice;

My personal choices, (yes, I had more than one) didn't win and neither did yours. There's no reason for me to keep insisting that they should have been nominated or that they should be chosen VP now. John McCain IS the nominee. McCain will choose his own VP and constant lobbying for Mike Huckabee has no effect on McCain.

Isn't this site supposed to be trying to get the GOP on the right track?

I thought so when it first started but it seems to have become a megaphone for Mike Huckabee instead.

Comments like this are defeating that cause.

Insisting that Huckabee must be the VP is preventing Republicans from coming together on this website. Some will never accept Mike Huckabee. Time for evangelicals to find another candidate for the next election with solid moral beliefs, but who doesn't alienate half the party.

 

It's not about insisting that anyone be veep

Lynn,

Speaking for myself, (and I think there may only be two other serious Huck supporters who blog here as opposed to just making comments.)

My reason for being here is to make sure that the point of view of one element of the socon base is represented. It feels in many ways that we are on the verge of being railroaded out of the party and I wanted to make sure we have a presence here. Huckabee is a part of that package.

I've blogged a few times about Mike mainly to stimulate discussion and air out our differences. I believe that many conservatives only 'know' a caricature of Huckabee' and wanted to point out what made him connect with so many. (And we aren't all 'evangelicals' Mike only got a third of that vote..  Obama's 90 percent hold on the AA vote, and Mitt's 90 percent of the Mormon vote, is much more exclusive)

I have blogged about why I think he would be a good vp, but have not forced others to agree or been hostile to other potential veep candidates.

Again, I'm sorry that Mike is so disturbing to you, but there are millions who feel very passionately the opposite, and we aren't going to flip a switch and move on because its inconvenient that he has vocal supporters.

Renson Again!

I have blogged about why I think he would be a good vp, but have not forced others to agree or been hostile to other potential veep candidates.

YOU have personally attacked me twice in other threads to the point that you were called down by other Huckabee supporters for your lack of Christian attitude. Now, you may choose not to admit this but it happened.

Additionally, I put "Renson Huckabee" into Google and got hits on literally dozens of websites. It seems much more than a casual support situation for you, Renson.

Again, I'm sorry that Mike is so disturbing to you, but there are millions who feel very passionately the opposite, and we aren't going to flip a switch and move on because its inconvenient that he has vocal supporters.

Yes, there are troops on both sides and that is exactly why there won't be a coming together of the Republican Party until there is a leader that combines enough of the various issues to draw us together.

John McCain is not that leader even though he is the nominee. Any VP that he chooses cannot bring us together singlehandedly either, but he/she might ease the conflict if it is not someone who keeps the wounds open. Personally, I'm researching Sarah Palin. I think evangelicals who don't find Huckabee acceptable might like Palin a lot.

Like Jindal, Palin is a bit inexperienced, but she has the advantage of being governor of Alaska, which is obviously at the center of the drilling issue. She is personable, attractive, successful, socially conservative, and might appeal to the female voter who cares more about gender than issues.

Take a look. There is nothing wrong with having a social conservative on the ticket but Huckabee is radioactive for too many conservatives.

Palin's my number 2 pick

Of course I've said things in anger to you before Lynn, I apologized for them, so it would be silly to pretend that I hadn't.

And of course this isn't casual for me LOL.. I dedicated over a year of my life to supporting his candidacy. I've spent hours on line making his case as have thousands of Huck's Army bloggers. They don't call us the workhorses of the base for nothing!

I consciously chose to register here to make sure that we would have a reasoned logical presence here. I try to keep it civil, but sometimes snap, and I'm sorry for that.

And I have tried to move towrds pragmatism.. I blogged this weekend asking for feedback on Palin, but not many showed interest.. Check out the recent posts for Pondering Palin.

Re: Pondering Palin

Ok, I will.

I haven't spent much time here lately. The site hasn't lived up to my early expectations but I'm always willing to find out more about Palin.

well, many of those places didn't warm up to Carter....

Once again, calling people bigots is a great way to lose. There is a track record here concerning southern Baptists. I think the Obamatons hurt themselves accusing rural whites of being bigots because they don't warm up to an urban liberal. Why make the same type of charge about northern non-evangelicals? 

Were we running against Hillary Huckabee would make more sense. But if we cannot get enough votes against Obama in SW MO and SW VA where he was crushed in the primaries we are down for the count anyway.

The bottom line is that we are a party that I believe is perceived by lots of swing voters as too religious and too southern already. Doubling down seems like a bad bet .(were Huckabee from Kansas or Iowa, well...)  And going ballistic on non-Huckabee types just makes his hole deeper (see Mormons and the financial community).......you have to go the honey over vinegar route here.

Hate to Point This Out

But Clinton was both a southerner and a Baptist from the same town as Huckabee. Also, the fact is that McCain is having trouble holding Missouri and Virginia both and Huckabee could boost Evangelical turnout. Karl Rove estimated that in 2000, 2 million Evangelicals stayed home which is what led to the Florida debacle. How many may stay home this year? Huckabee will boost that turnout even in states where Evangelicals aren't prominent.

I think what will matter is how he connects with voters if given proper exposure and opportunity which he was not really during the primaries.

As for bigotry, you're the one who is suggesting that people in the North who are non-Evangelicals who are close-minded towards anybody who comes from an Evangelical Church and the South and will automatically reject them no matter what their personal qualities.

If someone had the same attitude you're describing towards Catholics, Jews, or Mormons, it would be called bigotry, would it not?

Obviously Clinton didn't take his faith very seriously

"But Clinton was both a southerner and a Baptist from the same town as Huckabee"

What was her name, Gennifer? Where did Bubba get his law degree, New Haven, CT?

I'm getting a little tired of the "bigotry" charge here. Go ahead, shoot the damm messenger. If you cannot perceive that someone who is an ordained minister in a Baptist church might have a problem with secular voters and with Catholics (many of whom remember bias directed against them or their ancestors by southern protestants), well, fine. Blame the customers. That will always increase sales. 

Noticing JFK lost Kentucky and Oklahoma in 1960 isn't bigotry. Noticing Barack Obama runs poorly in rural white counties isn't bigotry. Noticing Mitt Romney was rejected in the rural South isn't bigotry. It's political reality. Given credible opposition these voters gravivate toards a candidate whom they perceive shares a greater affinity with them. Now one can suggest one deal with it, or choose to spout off.  Perhaps you are right and the Rove 2004 plan on steroids will still work, but then you better hope we never lose a net 118,000 votes in Ohio since we will be conceding all the 2004 Blue States.  I see no level of self-examination on the part of the Huck camp why he might have an electoral problem with certain groups and how he could address it--it must be the voters problem they don't immediately support him.

Suggesting "the Reagan coalition is dead" by the Huck camp told the non-evangelical forces in the party they would be kicked to the curb.  Whose fault is that? I'm sure the concept "you reap what you sow" applies here.

Conservative Catholics like Huckabee

If you cannot perceive that someone who is an ordained minister in a Baptist church might have a problem with secular voters and with Catholics (many of whom remember bias directed against them or their ancestors by southern protestants), well, fine.

There are many Catholics thtat support Huckabee.  Haven't you seen the many pro-Huckabee Catholic sites?  If not; do a Google search of "Catholics for Huckabee."  Huckabee had Catholics on his very small campaign payroll.  There are many Catholics in HucksArmy, as well as some atheist. 

Huckabee is a Baptist.  Baptists believe God gave everyone a choice as to which religion (if any) they want to practice.  If it weren't for the Baptists fighting for that right, Americans would be paying taxes to support 3 or 4 "established" churches.  Baptist fought tooth and nail because government funding means government interference.

21. We venture to give one early Congressional incident. The question of whether the United States should have an established church or several established churches, or religious liberty, was being discussed. Several different bills had been offered, one recommending the Church of England as the established church; and another the Congregationalist Church, and yet another the Presbyterian. The Baptists, many of them, though probably none of them members of Congress,
were earnestly contending for absolute religious liberty.
James Madison (afterwards President)
seemingly was their main supporter. Patrick Henry arose and offered a substitute bill for them all, "That four churches (or denominations) instead of one be established" -- the Church of England, or Episcopal, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and the Baptist.  Finally when each of the others saw that IT could not  be made the sole established church, they each agreed to accept Henry's compromise. (This compromise bill stated that each person taxed would have the right to say to which denomination of these four his money should go.) The Baptists continued to fight against it all; that any combination of Church and State was against their fundamental principles, that they could not accept it even if voted. Henry pleaded with them, said he was trying to help them, that they could not live without it, but they still protested. The vote was taken -- it carried nearly unanimously.  But the measure had to be voted on three times.  The Baptists, led by Madison and possibly others continued to fight. The second vote came. It also carried almost unanimously, swept by Henry's masterful eloquence. But the third vote had yet to be taken. Now God seemingly intervened. Henry was made Governor of Virginia and left Congress. When the third vote came, deprived of Henry's irresistible eloquence, the vote was lost.

Thus the Baptists came near being an established denomination over their own most solemn protest. This is not the only opportunity the Baptists ever had of becoming established by law, but is probably the nearest they ever came to it.

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0174.htm

Huckabee never tried converting people as Governor.  Why would anyone think things would be any different as President or VP? 

 

Thank the Baptists?

Huckabee is a Baptist.  Baptists believe God gave everyone a choice as to which religion (if any) they want to practice.  If it weren't for the Baptists fighting for that right, Americans would be paying taxes to support 3 or 4 "established" churches.  Baptist fought tooth and nail because government funding means government interference.

So, we should forget about the Pilgrims, forget about the Church of England, forget about the Founders, and thank the Southern Baptists for freedom of religion?

Consider this. Most Americans are not voting based on religious denomination. Most Americans want a president that can run the whole country, keep the economy sound, defend us from terrorism, close the border and be president of all of the people. We aren't looking for a national pastor to turn the Oval Office into a pulpit and convert the nation to Southern Baptist.

We've had two presidents who were Southern Baptist and both were abysmal failures. Never again. I don't choose a president because of his denomination but after Carter, Clinton and now Huckabee, there is one denomination that I will definitely vote against.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You really do have some kind of hatred problem

So, we should forget about the Pilgrims, forget about the Church of England, forget about the Founders, and thank the Southern Baptists for freedom of religion?

 

No, we should not forget about their persecution, confiscating their property, and burning people at the stake calling them witches because they practiced a different religion. (think Salem) But, we should get over it and move on.  Just like we all need to get over the lies and mud slinging done during this primary season.  Why can’t we quit shooting our own?   I can live with Jindal, Palin, and several other true value possibilities if they are chosen.  But, why not fight for the one I believe with all my heart is the best until it is no longer possible? 

Consider this. Most Americans are not voting based on religious denomination.

I agree that no one should vote for or against anyone because of their religious belief.  I sure didn't vote for Clinton even though he was the Baptist candidate!  And I didn't vote for Huckabee because he is Bapitst.  Thompson was the one I was leaning towards; but Huckabee was wiining my vote before Thompson even got in the race.  I matched with Huckabee closest on every candidate match I did except the one by FOXNEWS that had 2 of his views wrongly calculated. 

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Amen!  I will never again trust "conservative" leaders to tell me the truth.  I will do my own research because they have proven they cannot be trusted.  I wish some of the candidates would have tried harder to practice Reagan's 11th commandment.  The Dems slam us enough without us shooting our own party members.  My 1st choice was the first to go negative.  That was when he lost me totally.  Then I was trying to decide between Romney and Huckabee by doing my own research.  Total contrast of what the media was saying.  Then with Romney's record plus his negative ads; my choice was easy.  Romney's walk talked much louder than his talk talked.  Huckabee was my first choice, McCain was my second.  Now, I'm working hard to try to get my 2nd choice to choose my first as his running mate.  You say you won’t vote for McCain if Huckabee is on the ticket.  The only way McCain will lose my vote is if he chooses Romney or any other candidate that doesn't have a record of consistenly standing up for moral values.  Or at the very least a decent record of fighting for those moral values after "converting" to them like Reagan did.  Reagan worked hard for the  pro-life movement before deciding to run for President.  It was his values that switched me from the Democrat Party to the Republican Party.  I later learned that Reaganomics works. 

It's the Mitt thing isn't it..

Lynn,

So much of your hostility to Huckabee seems to be rooted in what you percieve to be a slight on Romney.. Huckabee is as much a capitalist as Reagan was.. there is no evidence to the contrary, your insistence that he is otherwise is puzzling to anyone who knows his entire record in detail.

Playing up his socon street cred to attact religious voters is not a crime.. it was smart politics.. Obama is doing it better than McCain right now..just like Mitt playing to his economic strengths in MI was smart politics.

In the entire campaign, Mike made ONE public religious fauxpas in the article when he asked a question about Mormon doctrine in that article. It was a mistake he paid for dearly, even with his own base. Beyond that he had done everything he could to stay neutral on the subject.

Avoidance wasn't enough for Mitts supporters and the media.. everybody wanted Mike to come out and say 'Mitt's a christian' ...Well I'm sorry, but he could not say that and retain any credibility with the traditional christian base. Mitt is a person of faith, but doctrinally it is not percieved as the same faith as historic christianity. Mike's offical position was always that a person's religion should have no bearing on whether or not he/she could be president.

You are absolutely entitled to never vote for Huckabee, but it seems your true motivations have less to do with policy and more to do with a personal resentment of him on principle.

That's ok too.. I resent the heck out of people who I think resisted Huckabee for purely reliigious reasons, but I'm learning to let go of the bitterness, maybe you should do the same.

 

Renson!

So much of your hostility to Huckabee seems to be rooted in what you percieve to be a slight on Romney..

It wasn't a perception, Renson. Huckabee made very dirty, ugly, underhanded, bigoted attacks. Huckabee is now seen by many, many Republicans and conservatives as a religious bigot due to his own words and actions. That will never go away.

But it goes much deeper than his religious bigotry, or that of his supporters, for that matter. I don't vote religion. I don't vote for populism. I don't vote for socialism.  Mike Huckabee smacks of both.  I vote issues and there are many conservative Republicans who do the same.

This website is supposed to be about bringing Republicans together. That is never going to happen as long as Huckabee is a factor.

For every evangelical who supports Huckabee there is another Republican conservative who will never vote for him.

I would advise you to consider what Ronald Reagan stood for, and the role that his religion played in his campaigns and in his terms in office, and look for a believer in that mold. Most Republicans will have no problem with moral beliefs patterned after either Reagan or Bush but evangelism cannot be the main issue that the candidate runs on. There are not enough evangelicals in this country to elect such a candidate.

To get back on topic here, I plan to follow Bobby Jindal very closely over the next few years. I do believe he has a future in higher office and I do not believe that there is any similarity whatsoever between Jindal and Huckabee.

Mike isn't going anywhere, and the party should be glad

This website is supposed to be about bringing Republicans together. That is never going to happen as long as Huckabee is a factor.

 

I'm sorry that Mike is such a divisive figure for you Lynn, but the reality is he WILL have a place in the future of this party, we can't just wish him away, he earned his spot and his support. He may not be The leader, but he will be A leader, and one with very significant clout at that.

Could you imagine the disaster in the GOP  if Mike took his support and tried for an independent run? 30 percent minimum of the base would dissappear. It will take the coalition to stay in power, and right now, he is the face of our wing of the party. It is what it is.. and we don't shake alligence easily. Whatever favorable rating Bush has left is probably coming from us. We don't throw our candidates under the bus. 

As we speak he is urging his base to join him in supporting other conservatives in local races. On July 23 he is having a live blogging exercise on his pac website where the hucpac endorsed candidates can get on line and engage directly in Q&A with the base. Six candidates have confirmed so far. He is working his tail off for the GOP in multiple races at multiple levels. He's paying his dues.

 I am amazed that you feel entitled to speak on behalf of the GOP that Huckabee has to disappear in order for the party to be united. I'm not asking Mitt or Rudy or Fred to dissappear, or for their supporters not to have a presence on TNR.

We'd all better find a way to work around or through these conflicts, otherwise this truly is the end of the Grand Old Party as we know it.

Oh.. and  Huck ran on evangelism? Now that Dog definately won't hunt. He wasn't having revival tent meetings on the stump for pete's sake.

Huckabee is not a socialist!

You've been listening to too many of the pundits.  Huckabee has always been against socialism.  What is socialistic about getting rid of the IRS and implementing the FairTax to stop penalizing productivity?  He promotes education to help people get decent jobs so they aren't living off the government by welfare or incarceration.  Jobs increased and unemployement decreased under Huckabee's leadership.  Huckabee promotes personal responsibilty. 

When Hurricane Katrina hit; Huckabee called on help from private organizations.  Instead of being dumped in huge "human cattle barns" refugees were distributed across the entire state. Private camps (religious, Boy and Girl Scouts, etc.) were opened with shelter, food, and clothing ready before the people arrived.  They literally had to call to find out what was taking them so long to get there.

I have never felt offended when people of other religions ask questions about my faith.  As for Huckabee's question about the Mormon religion; I'll let Huckabee answer that one himself:

Speaking with CNN Wednesday, Huckabee expressed disbelief that the comment has caused an uproar.

"We were having a conversation over several hours, the conversation was about religion and he was trying to press me on my thoughts of Mitt Romney's religion, and I said 'I don't want to go there.'" Huckabee said.

"I really didn't know. Well, he was telling me things about the Mormon faith, because he frankly is well-schooled on comparative religions. As a part of that conversation, I asked the question, because I had heard that, and I asked it, not to create something -- I never thought it would make the story."

Huckabee, who has surged into first place in Iowa, also reiterated that he doesn't think a candidate's religion should be an issue in the campaign.

"I don't think his particular religion is a factor in whether or not people should vote him or against him," he said. "I'd like to think that my being a Baptist isn't a factor in people voting for or against me."

HUCKABEE: And I regret it. And I went to Mitt Romney afterward, when we were in the debate in Des Moines, and I said, "Mitt, I want to tell you, I apologize. I understand that hurt you and made you feel that I was saying something about your religion. I'm not. I don't particularly care for people attacking my Baptist faith. I'm not attacking yours. And I was simply asking a question. And I apologize. And I would not hurt or offend somebody else's faith."

 

Fiscal conservative

What is the best plan for giving people the most economic opportunity, removes the burden of government from individual's finances, provides the best environment for companies to produce and innovate instead of being bogged down by an onerous tax system, assists the person at the lower end of the scale the most who is willing to work hard, will allow the greatest amount of capital investment and subsequently job creation, and is fair to all?????   And what would you call the kind of person who supports this plan??

 

The plan is the Fair Tax and anyone who supports it should be considered a fiscal conservative!!

 

Mike Huckabee is one of the most outspoken supporters of the Fair Tax.  In addition, he started with a deficit of $200 million and left the office of Governor of Arkansas with a surplus of $800 million.  Each year he balanced the budget.  There may be issues to quibble with but Mike Huckabee was and is a fiscal conservative!!

 

Huckabee would be an incredible pick for VP!

Huckabee has demonstrated  incredible political prowness on a number of occasions; he was first in the Republican party primaries to note that the economy would be a major issue and spoke to it with common sense solutions and heart-felt sensitivity. With skill, authenticity, and keen awareness, he immediately connected with voters. Americans, as a whole, are sick of career politicans speaking with "forked tongues" and lining their pockets all the while; additionally, they are impatient with empty promises of change while our government remains inept and corrupt. The special interests have provided for themselves and the corporations they work for while depleting the average American's paychecks and sending our country's deficits through the roof. Bankrupting America is not fiscal conservatism. Huckabee was the first candidate since Reagan to actually speak to these revelant concerns and provide hope for dramatic improvement in the way government works. He certainly does not want to strip corporate growth; in fact, he built corporate investment in AR while governor and provided corporate incentives such as improving infrastructure to accomodate their transportation needs. He also advocates the fair tax which would bring back corporations to the mainland; remember, many  have left because of the country's high corporate taxes. These corporations have taken thousands of jobs with them. We would see an immediate and significant economic impact if they come back to America to operate. No primary candidate was more fiscally conservative  than Huckabee; he accomplished more with less. Additionally, when Huckabee was governor, he took the state of AR from a considerable deficit to a multi-million dollar surplus. This is what we need in government. Fiscal conservatism is putting money in the coffers, not borrowing, and certainly not spending more than you have. It is building business, not sending it overseas. It is making products in American rather than China. Huckabee is a pro in this regard!

I have no problem with Bobby Jindal and would certainly vote for the McCain ticket if Jindal is on it; however, he has far less executive experience than Huckabee and is unvetted and unproven in many respects. Because McCain is running on experience, Jindal could be a distraction. I do like his socially conservative credientials, and love the fact that he is a devoted Catholic. He, like Huckabee, has clear beliefs that align with biblical principles and social charity.

Mike Huckabee would help McCain on so many fronts. He is the best on the economy ( the major issue for 2008) and with his communication skills would bring much needed excitement to McCain's campaign. He can truly connect with youth and the working class. Republicans must include the conservative, middle-class American in the party, or they will lose. This segment of the electorate will turn this election, and Huckabee is clearly the best man to speak to this sector. McCain/Huckabee 2008!

Ending the friendly fire..

I think we shall just have to agree to disagree.. continuing this squabble just makes all involved look.. 'not good'  and things get said it anger that are better left unsaid.

We all have our reasons for believing what we do, and making the decisions that we have. As no one else in our considerable audience has bothered to chime in one way or another... perhaps it really doesn't matter to others as much as it does to us.

Huckabee supporters will continue to support him in whatever he endeavors to do politically, but we will also fully support the party if it is decided that Mike is not the pathway to victory.. Hopefully it will be a given that a social conservative with a proven track record on the values issues would be his veep. Just as, I'm sure, fiscons want someone with an acceptable track record in that regard as well. (Palin is still my number 2 pick in that regard)

There are those like Lynn, on principle who will never support a Huckabee. That is her right. Every candidate probably has a core of hardline resistance, I do think in the national picture, that there is significantly less of the 'Never Huckabee' bloc than she seems to think there is, but time will tell that tale as I'm sure he'll run again someday.

In the meantime, its probably time to end this discussion before it REALLY gets out of hand.

Sure, we can end this discussion on Huckabee

I agree that I will never move toward Huck but I'm not so sure that we can't agree on some things.

(Palin is still my number 2 pick in that regard)

I just left you a message further up about Sarah Palin. She is a very acceptable pick to me too.

 

Jindal has vetoed the Legislative pay raise!

Good job!

Mmmm Jindal

It's fiscally sound decision..

But I hope it doesn't open doors to corruptiion or slow down the progress that was otherwise made when the two offices were working together happily..

I actually think it was biting the hand that fed him to do this.. we'll see how that works out.

Guess Jindal is going to try to have it both ways after all

I like both Jindal and Huckabee!

Mike Huckabee is my first pick for VP.  But from what I've seen so far of the dozens of VP candidates, Jindal is probably one of my top five picks, if not top three.  He is a strong conservative on both fiscal and social issues.

But wherever a good man is, there will also be men who try to defame him.  Now Jindal is being accused (falsely) of not being fiscally conservative.  He's not the first to face such false accusations.  Mike Huckabee also has a good record as a fiscal conservative, but the democratic Arkansas legislature and judiciary splotched this record.  Unfortunately, conservative groups such as the Club For Growth picked up on this and gave him a bad name.  Follow these links to see the other side of the story:

http://forum.hucksarmy.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=3259

http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/004053.html