CIA Interrogation Program: Why Prosecution would be unfair

This will be a brief discussion of why I at least am against prosecution for the CIA Program.

First we need some background understanding. 

The story begins early in the "war on terror", after the attacks everyone assumed we would be hit again and there was great fear.

Six days after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush signed a sweeping finding that gave the CIA broad authorization to disrupt terrorist activity, including permission to kill, capture and detain members of al Qaeda anywhere in the world.

This is fine, and what we should do, but after 9/11 it is clear that the Bush administration wanted the law pushed to their limits, the administration wanted maximium latitude and authority to carry out the war on terrror.

Second we will need to discuss the Janurary 2002 Bybee memo, and the office of the OLC. here is where the story gettings interesting. The thing about an OLC memo is its force

The Office also is responsible for providing legal advice to the executive branch on all constitutional questions and reviewing pending legislation for constitutionality. The decisions of the Office are binding on all executive agencies.

The most important part is that highlighted party, unless overruled by the President, Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General, if the OLC says it in a memo, then its Law for executive agencies. 

Thus we are at a point, the Bush administration wants to push interpretation of the law to the limits to fight the war on terror and asks the OLC for advice, the OLC  responds with the Bybee memo which, being an OLC memo, is now binding on all executive agencies, and what does it say?

he memo concludes that the restrictions are very limited — that only acts inflicting and “specifically intended to inflict severe pain or suffering”, whether mental or physical, are prohibited. Allowed are severe mental pain not intended to have lasting effects (pity if they do…), and physical pain less than that which acompanies “serious physical injury such as death or organ failure” (p. 46). Having opined that some cruel, inhuman, or degrading acts are not forbidden, only those that are “extreme acts” (committed on purpose)

as is pointed out

When the Senate ratified the Torture Convention in 1994 it stated “[t]hat the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under Article 16 to prevent ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,’ only insofar as the term ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment’ means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.”

But what does the Fifth, Eighth and Fourteeth Amendments mean to a non U.S citizen in another country? what type of CID did the fathers intend to prevent the U.S from doing halfway across the world? A loophole may or may not have been created for the CIA. it goes as follows. 

 Treatment of Detainees

This we will break down now. What the CIA was thinking for sure obviously we don't know, but as a current Constitutional Law professor and former CIA prosecutor discusses here

The Bush administration's stated policy against torture is consistent with the Consititution and with state and federal statues. Even so, for several years after 9/11, a loophole may have allowed the CIA to conduct interrogations that were severe but short of torture [Bybee Memo] - according to the administration's definition. This loophole depended on a distinction between "torture" and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment" (CID), two related concepts from the Convention Against Torture. Even before torture was made a federal crime, under the Constitution and other statutes, both torture and CID were illegal for interrogations within the United States. The federal statute, which was passed after the United States ratifed the Convention Against Torture, applies to torture outside the United States, making it a crmie if the offender is a United States national, or is present in the United States. This statute does not mention CID.  Therefore, in interrogations that the CIA conducted on non U.S citizens outside the United States, CID may have continued past the December 2004 Office of Legal Counsel memorandum. The CIA, unlike the Defense Department, is not controlled by the strict standards of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. As a result, the CIA may have operated in a gary zone below its definition of torture but beyond what the criminal justice system permits in the questioning of suspects and defendants. For a while, the CIA may have felt safe to use CID, but not torture, on suspected terroirsts who were afforded fewer rights than American citizens. 

The 2004  OLC memo "Levin Memo" stated in footnote 8 

While we have identified various disagreements with the August 2002 Memorandum, we have reviewed this Office's prior opinions addressing issues involving treatment of detainees and do not believe that any of their conlcusions would be different under the standards set forth in this momorandum

as we noted the OLC memo is binding unless overruled, beyond describing the limitation of behavior for interrogators, the 2002 Bybee Memo also concluded that Common Article III did not apply to the U.S conflit with al Qaeda. 

Here is the point of a legal gray area. The OLC memo says that Common Article III of the Geneva Convention doesn't apply espeically since it states 

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

Thus before 2006 the OLC had interpreted laws and statues to say that the CIA could go pretty damn far, the problem is in 2006 the Supreme Court decided Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. This is the case that found Bush's military commissions were not sufficient and couldn't be used to try Hamadan for violating the laws of war, since the commissons themselves did not meet the standards of the UCMJ and Common Article III. in its decision the Supreme Court stated that Common Article III applied to ALL aspects of the U.S conflit with al Qaeda.

Problem with Common Article III

The problem with Common Article III? its vague, (yes this is what all that back and forth with Bush when he called the geneva convention vague was about) 

as we discussed thanks to the OLC memos and their lawyers very agressive interpretation of laws, the CIA had acted under 4 years of belief that Common Article III did not apply and that CID was ok up to an extreme point. now that Common Article III appiled so did 3 important provisions

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

Here was the problem what does "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment" mean? and whose perspective? the resonable person? al Qaeda? the terrorist? the reasonable terrorist? reasonable al Qaeda terrorist? Would not allowing a Muslim detainee to pray be an outrage upon personal dignity? its one thing to debate, but when you have been operating for 4 years, and must continue to do so, you want a little bit more guidance then "outrages upon pesonal dignity" espeically since it is a War Crime to violate ANY part of the Geneava Convention and the "following orders" (OLC Memo) is not an excuse. 

and we all know what that means as, Michael points out at the end of his discussion of the 2002 OLC memo

Remember: the lawyers who wrote this memo were guilty of a lack of moral sense, and extreme tunnel vision fueled by a national panic. The people who asked them to write it, who read it, and especially any who may have acted on it — they’re people who really have the most to answer for.

Indeed and there is why I will be against any repeal of the Military Commissions Act of 2006  (precluding the widest application of Common Article III). The problem is the MCA can easily be deemed unconstitutional or change, and there is no stature of limitations for War Crimes. thus any CIA officer at the bottom who trusted an OLC memo they were never allowed to see, may or may not have commited War Crimes, which they could easily be prosecuted for in 20 years if the U.S Government in order to make some of the more liberal Americans happy ever decides it needs to fully prosecute torture. 

at the very least, I don't support American's being proseucted for war crimes, because they were trying to do their job, and because some lawyers may have pushed their definitions and interpretations of law a little to hard.

 

 

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note: Waterboarding

 I don't discuss or include, I think waterboarding may or may not have been torture, I hope from this at least , we have learned that we can't say anything conclusive unless we know everything they knew at the time.

I will agree that its something we will never do again. if for no other reason at all other then it hurts America's image across the world. 

May those who committed torture be dragged to the lowest

depths of hell by the screams of the innocent.

They knew it was wrong -- one could not torture without walling one's morality off from one's profession.

They deserve to be punished for their warcrimes. They undertook them with the idea that their punishment was worth the information. Torture should never be condoned, and the prosecution will allow America's hands to begin to wash themselves clean.

I am not a Kantian, I understand that torture will continue to happen, in the shadows. May each and all who have condoned such a thing suffer for it, imprisoned.

ok

besides the warboarding, what was this "torture" that occurred? how about use use actual acts, not a vague term that now is going to be different from person to person.

 

can you even provide a definition of torture? One that isn't vauge and isn't just going backwards and going when they did that, that was torture and that there that was torture.

once again thats just a list of "known can'ts" yes hindsight is 20/20 and they may have pushed the limit to far but how about you then tell us what that limit was back in 2002 when they had to decide what they could and couldn't do and how far they could push it.  

1. Do not hurt prisoners.

This means no joint dislocations, no bleeding until half dead, no forced standing on feet for 15 hours at a time, and other forms of torture that more "advanced" societies use so that they can return the person to their government with no overt physical signs of torture.

I Do Not Know what acts were committed in America, but I can describe what acts have been committed on other people's soil, and are quite likely to have been committed here, as I have outlined above.

Anyone who has done such a thing deserves 50 years hard labor in a coal mine.

Torture has been prohibited not just because it saves our solders' lives, but because IT DOES NOT WORK. You get 90% bullshit, and that stat comes from a guy on the inside.

Judging by that, any form of psychological warfare -- that is, deliberate decisions to degrade someone's quality of life, for the reasons of "extracting a confession" are fundamentally unproductive. This definition of psychological torture should include giving 80-year-old grandmothers extremely loud music, a hard bench, and no place to rest for 24 hours at a time (man I hate TSA). Or desecrating someone's Koran. Or being put into solitary confinement until one goes legally insane.

I feel like this is just STUPID, and less deserving of punishment by "warcrimes tribunal." Appropriate disciplinary action may either be punitive or criminal, based on how much the person was hurt, and how malicious the intent. There should still be punishment, just I'm willing to go MUCH lighter and with more gradation on this count.

There's a difference between Nazi and Gestapo, and I see that here.

There really weren't any bounds needed beforehand, as it was commonly understood that bullying prisoners wasn't the way to get intelligence. The boundaries would be what would be considered humane -- decent food, decent rest, decent amount of exercise. Maybe not to the point of TV, etc, but at least normal basics.

I mourn the loss of our intelligence community, and curse Heritage's idea of "ideology over competency"

Don't you see how vague you still are

and how this could be a problem?

Do not hurt prisoners

can we make them uncomfortable? how far is it from uncomfortable to hurt? do you mean really hurt? you sound like you mean seriously hurt, can we only minorly hurt them? if 15 hours was to long, is 10 hours to long? where is that line? will it differ per person and their actual physical conditions?

Judging by that, any form of psychological warfare -- that is, deliberate decisions to degrade someone's quality of life, for the reasons of "extracting a confession" are fundamentally unproductive.

ANY form of psychological warfare? isn't an interrogation at some level psychological warfare? so then exactly how much are we allowed to use?

 

Vagueness is fine untill its time to make a decision and then all you did was just give more questions what do I tell the CIA operative if he can now have the person stand for 13 hrs because they seem in pretty good shape. and they wanna sap some of his energy.

should I say no this is torture? would it be ok if I said stand him for only 3 hrs? you force judgement calls when you are vague and then later come back and just go well obviously you should have known before hand this is to far.

but like  Isaid don't give me extremes like 

This definition of psychological torture should include giving 80-year-old grandmothers extremely loud music, a hard bench, and no place to rest for 24 hours at a time 

I agree.

 

but I am asking where exactly is the line.

 

Okay, so there is obviously a line. ;-)

I think that the line DOES differ based on the person. If someone can get a blood clot and die, based on sitting for eight hours straight (diabetes condition), then it's not a good idea to have him sit for eight hours straight.

I think a general sort of line is "If it's something done during the course of a relatively normal workday" then it's fine. That is to say, having someone do a highwire act is probably not so good, but having someone do about what a waiter does, in terms of standing all day (with breaks) is fine. There's no way someone would consider that cruel and unusual punishment, simply because it's normal.

I do not believe intentional physical harm should be used. This is bounded by "what a normal prison looks like" -- aka if someone has a back problem, and is asked to sleep on a normal prison bed, which causes some pain (but not to the point of screaming, or of extreme sleep deprivation which would lead to mood changes and impaired decisionmaking), that's fine. We aren't exactly here to coddle military personnel.

Here is an example of Vietnam war era interrogations:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-cs...

from the ny times:

In response to fallout over the well-documented cases of prisoner abuse — which included prolonged isolation, sensory deprivation (visual and auditory), forced removal of clothing, exploiting prisoners phobias (notably fear of dogs), and threats against family members — the Pentagon began scaling back the use of SERE tactics in 2002 and eventually banned them altogether. The Army Field Manual, which serves as a primary guide for U.S. military interrogation, now specifically rules out the use of a variety of SERE-founded techniques including water-boarding, a form of simulated drowning, as well as the use of dogs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR200712...

Kos has a military intelligence expert's testimony up (sorry, my googling is clumsy), and his descriptions of interrogations are more like -- building trust. He broke someone by giving them a Harry Potter book! This is the time tested and proven way -- know your prisoner, and convince him that you want to help him, that you are not some sort of satanic evildoer, but just a genuine person -- the type who will protect his family back home. And when one person breaks like this, they can spread the word "yes, I really did get to go free, or talk to my family, or whathaveyou"

There is much more to be said for the carrot strategy.

I think if there is one in twenty people who would say "You made him do WHAT?" then what you're doing is probably wrong. Grab up ten Americans, and ten Afghanis -- poll 'em. I'm certain the Afghanis would scream bloody murder about dancing on the Koran. And I'm sure the Americans would scream about standing in one place for five hours.

I get it -- it's a prison. Things ain't supposed to be sunshine and rainbows there. But it's also not a gulag.

I believe that torture will continue -- I just don't want it to be official. That means, if you do it, you do it knowing that you will go to prison for it -- so it BETTER be worth it!

 

See I guess where I dissagree is

its a hindsight is 20/20 obviously now we all see the went to far.

But the OLC memo is the government telling you what the law IS.

and in 2002 the OLC said this is what the law SAYS we can and can't do. 

 

I am simply of the mind its unfair to go back and tell the people at the bottom, your government told you what the law was, but your government was wrong, so you committed war crimes. 

and history teaches me its never the people at the top who will face consequences, no it will be the people at the bottom. 

bullets teach lessons.

grab a gun, sonny. you'll need it.

Extragovernmental actions teach just as much as any other.

Nazis didn't live long after WWII.

Guess who bought land in Paraguay?

 

Any who didn't believe that what they were doing was worth the price on their souls, and on their lives, could have resigned at any time. This is what you do when you disagree with the Commander in Chief, you resign. Well, either that or you courageously leak out the wazoo.

It's a copout to say "but they said it was okay!" -- any intel officer could tell you that torture gives pounds of bad data, and otherwise makes intelligence that much more unproductive. If you get bad orders from above, you speak up. and if they don't listen, you use your resignation to send a message.

 you keep using torture, we

 you keep using torture, we didnt torture we used Harsh interrogation techniques which were ok.

the question is whats the line and the difference betwen harsh interrogration and torture? legally there is quite easily a like, chopping off an arm is torture, making someone stand 13 hours may not be torture, buts definitely harsh and maybe even cruel, but its not torture,.

 

so where are the lines, its not "they said its ok" its " They said THIS is what the law said" you are basically saying that the regular old CIA workers should have just KNOWN that the Department of Justice was reading and interpretating U.S and International law wrong to know where exactly that line is, when even after hours you can't just give me where that line was.

But these people are different they shold have just known where it was even if you cant simply just spell it out for me. 

A JAG on waterboarding

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime By Evan Wallach Sunday, November 4, 2007; Page B01 As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it. After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war.

So, tell me, other than the odious Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield regime, what has caused our national standards to decline so much that what we used to consider a crime when others did is now perfectly OK when we do it?

Actually, for the sake of clairity - what has caused YOUR standards to decline? The majority of Americans still know right from wrong.

May 27, 2004— Americans by nearly 2-to-1 oppose torturing terrorism suspects — but half believe the U.S. government, as a matter of policy, is doing it anyway. And even more think the government is employing physical abuse that falls short of torture in some cases.

Given pro and con arguments, 63 percent in an ABC News/Washington Post poll say torture is never acceptable, even when other methods fail and authorities believe the suspect has information that could prevent terrorist attacks. Thirty-five percent say torture is acceptable in some such cases.

 

seriously maybe I should do an update.

the very first line, I am not including waterboarding in this discussion, I consider that a whole nother issue. I am talking about all the other things that were done that we do or don't know and it isn't about any 1 thing. the issue is more complex then that.

 

this is a very specific issue and peple are wanting to really make it more generalized. I suggest you really read that Law Review article attached by John Radsan, it gives a nice sense of how complex this issue of "torture" was with the CIA Program 

oh, no. i just read the washpost article.

simple solution: end the job security.

Fire every god damn son of a bitch who managed to bow and scrape to become a gossling.

Strip the entire fucking agency bare, hire back the professional Republicans and all the democrats for top dollar. Make minor concessions for anyone not guilty of groupthinkm -- aka demotion down to the bottom of their capabilities.

See? complex issue, simple solution.

BRING MY CIVIL SERVICE BACK!

it is torture, will continue to be torture

and the screams of the innocent will be on the accursed who acted in our government's name.

Waterboarding is torture. Inducing phobic panic attacks is torture.

Waterboarding is torture, and people have been prosecuted because of it at warcrimes tribunals. John McCain suffered torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Cruel and unusual punishment is banned in our legal system, and should be banned in any form of intelligence gathering.

I am telling you morally what I believe. If I was a person who worked there, it would be my duty to understand what was going on, both from my own perspective as well as from the legislative and treaty standpoint.

Look, you want to pull the geneva convention? you pull the fucking geneva convention. The treaties and laws are pretty fucking simple, if you'll pardon my french. I ain't gonna bother, as I know what's right, and I know what isn't.

I believe that anyone who to quote the post, spoke up sharply and registered disagreement, may deserve leniency.

It is obvious that these tortures were not only harsh, but also ineffectual. To not speak up against them is to be derelict in duty, and as such worthy of prosecution.

ah, i found it! from the red cross:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/69MJXC

Seems pretty clear to me -- no severe suffering or pain to be inflicted for the purpose of interrogation. Waterboarding, chasing by dogs, etc are clearly torture.

Would you care to try and define 'torture'?

Feel free to tell me exactly what torture would look like. I'm sure I could then give you five examples that most people would consider torture that you didn't mention. It's nigh impossible to list just what torture is...hence the 'vague' wording. But it's usually accepted that lack of sleep, extreme cold or heat, stress positions, etc. can be considered torture, especially when used in conjunction with one another.

After Jan 20th we can return to what we once were.

I seem to remember that I once lived in a country whose citizens did not have any need to try and parse words to have an accurate meaning of torture.  And now I do again.

Thank you Mr. President, and 56 million who said the insanity stops now!