SoCons, Paultards, NeoCons, RINOS... TOSS 'EM ALL OUT... or Maybe Not

We can't stand RINO Arlen Spector. He's not a Republican no matter what his name plate says. Most of Ron Paul's supporters are just on the wrong side of tinfoil hattery. Social Cons need to get their head out of their rears and stop thinking abortion is the only issue in the game. Neocons really need to know that Israel isn't the only thing that America should be worried about overseas. Country Clubbers just gotta remember that the business community isn't all there is to this country. Foreign policy realists need to have it pointed out to them that principles DO matter not just "what works." Strict constructionists should remember that compromise is a founding principle, too. The David Frums and Kathleen Parkers of the world have to be shown the door. You hear all these arguments and more coming from inside the GOP, these epithets used like clubs against our own with the result being that it always seems at any minute a party wide cage match could erupt. And I am often just as guilty in playing the purity game. Likely, so are you.

But why do we do it? Why do Republicans break out the pitch forks and light the torches every time there is perceived impurity around them in the party? Why do we enclave so well and why don't we do "join" well? Even more to the point, why do Democrats seem to avoid this problem?

The first problem we have as Republicans is that, for the most part, we are more concerned with wider principles than are Democrats. Those leftists that are only interested in a single issue know the value of a coalition. Even if they do have some concerns on wider issues they know their pet issue can't win unless Democrats are in power. So, Democrats that are less concerned with wider issues are able to coalesce to better push their particular long term goals. Often they can even see the sense of temporarily taking a hit with their pet idea if the long term goal stays in focus. They track with each other and "join" very well.

Democrats traditionally will go along to get along on things outside their pet issue. Pro-baby killers don't have any interest in taxes (other than how much they can find to fund abortion), big government liberals aren't that worried about gender issues, sexual deviates are happy to let others worry about foreign policy, Europhiles leave the gay issues to their compatriot Democrats, etc., etc. But they all understand that joining together benefits them all.

Republican single issue voters, though, are often offended by expectations of compromise even amongst their own. The slightest move to the wrong side of the line is enough to end associations in a huff. Those principles, or that principle is the Raison d'être, the end all, be all of the matter. Any association that does not pass the litmus test is quickly ended, often vehemently. All too often, the art of compromise amongst our own is eschewed for hidebound insistence on near-term goals.

Yet, while many Republicans are single issue oriented just like Democrats, unlike Democrats Republicans of all stripes are also seriously concerned with other issues. For instance, anti-abortion single issue voters are often Constitutionalists, traditionalists, 2nd Amendment supporters and church goers. While chiefly concerned with abortion all those other issues also spark their passion if to a lesser degree. Country clubbers are also quite interested in foreign policy. Neocons are just as often highly motivated by economics and immigration. And all Republicans are fiercely concerned about American history. These are factors that should bring us together in coalitions. We should reach out to each out to each other, get some of the hackles down and work together better like Democrats do. And we don't have to glumly emulate Democrats in this. After all, this is how the founding generation did it, too.

Certainly, Democrats have been good at this only recently becoming more strident amongst each other. In fact, this is why the DailyKos and MoveOn.org made such a big splash a few years ago. Those efforts were the first time Democrats began to look for purity in their own ranks to the point of attempting to excise the unbelievers. The jury is still out as to the effect that the MoveOn and DailyKos set are having on the Democrat side of the aisle, though. One thing is sure, thus far electoral victory has eluded them. They have money aplenty, but specifically supported candidates have not won at the polls to date (Obama aside).

But, back to us. Why do we fight each other as much as we do the real enemy? Why at the drop of a hat are we so ready to drum out certain elements of our own? And why don't we see that this constant purity purging leaves us weakened to the point where Democrats walk away with the prize while we sit on the sidelines seething?

Am I saying anything goes? Am I saying the big tent is more important than any one principle? No. There are some elements that need to be cut out of the party -- as Buckely knew with the Birchers in the 50s and 60s. What I am saying is we need to make better coalitions. If the Constitutionalists can team up with the Social Cons and make a more powerful coalition than the Neocons and the country clubbers, then let the stronger lead the pack and the weaker acquiesce, happy for a seat at the table, until such time as another coalition wins the upper hand.

Again, Democrats do this well. They have gatherings and events, they reach out to each other and try to hammer out an agenda and they don't let temporary losses at the polls deter them from the grand design. On the other hand, we hold events without inviting other groups. We send out newsletters but only to the like-minded. We carp and shout amongst our own enclave without bothering to reach out to fellow Republicans that differ if but slightly.

It is just a singular fact that we can't win as single enclaves. We HAVE to learn "join" better. This is just the facts on the ground. Constantly attempting to excise each other is a Frumming we can't recover from. (Speaking of certain would-be Republicans turned sudden media stars, we also need to remember that these people are interested in themselves and their own careers and have little interest in the party itself. It's all about name recognition for them... THEIR name. They are destroyers not builders for without a wreck they have nothing to write about. Take them as such.)

Certainly the fault for all of this is both within and without. As noted above we don't do "join" well and that is in some measure due to our nature as conservatives interested in individualism and self-reliance. But there is another reason why the center-right often flounders in America. We've allowed the left to win the battle to control the debate and, in the end, the very fabric of government.

The one thing that has forced us to this point is the cancerous growth of the federal government. That growth has destroyed the true American system. Originally the USA was supposed to be governed by coalitions of state interests gathering together to guide federal policy. Senators were not elected by the people but appointed by the state to represent the state's interests. And in all the federal government was a vastly smaller concern that did not garner the attention and the deep pockets of lobbyists.

In that environment, conservatives of all stripes had the luxury of gathering in smaller associations. Purity was much easier to assure then. Local control was paramount.

Sadly, the left is currently in complete control of the game board. They have made the federal government the biggest player growing Washington to gargantuan proportions and they have redefined the American system into the Euroesque mess that it is. And Republicans have by turns stood idly by letting them do so, and then copying them when we had the dice in our hands.

If we want to bring it all back to a manageable size we need to begin reducing government. We need to slice programs, fire government employees, and cut regulation. This is the only way we can begin to take the upper hand for the simple reason that our whole philosophy is antithetical to big government. On top of all that we need to take control of the educational system because all this over indulgence in big government stems from an electorate too ignorant to even know why smaller government is the right way.

So, we have several tasks before us. But learning how to join forces and begin to truly cut government down to size is chief among them. It means we'll have to tolerate the less than pure amongst us at times, yes. But if we splinter we will never even have a seat at the table that will forever be set by big government, socialist, liberals.

Sorry for the mess this all makes, as purity is so much simpler. But if you've ever read of the cage matches the Founders went through, well, you'll know today is no different. At least on that level so we are in good company.

Now... let the slings and arrows fly!

Be sure and Visit my Home blog Publius' Forum. It's what's happening NOW!

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 I had watched 60 minutes and

 I had watched 60 minutes and on the episode there was southern Evangelical or baptist that was being interviewed and before they went to his work site they had to drive by his church. It is a different culture than what we have in the north or midwest. It is hard to express this just typing this out, but this personal issue or the nitpicking of social issues from abortion to gay marriage is not of a concern when people lose jobs. 

We have witnessed 8 years of laissez-faire and you have talked about doing the big issues. If you look at free trade as a big issue, then certainly you notice that the middle class is losing jobs, healthcare insurance, and pensions, and that cities and states are going broke as factories close. So am I going to worry about some social issue?

The big issue of tax cuts does not solve problems. The government needs to be involved in some sort. This borders on central planning, and for whatever reason Washington always gets it wrong. Central planning by the democrats, republicans, and Alan Greenspan on housing was the wrong thing to do. It is about jobs in times of globalization. It is about investing in people, the country, and the future.

You talk of republicans looking at the wider issue and I am failing to see that. It has been a one way neocon, religious, laissez-faire approach. 

So in what in the future did Bush invest in? The tax cuts were for the here and now, for the rich, and did nothing for the future as Americans were losing their jobs. What in the big issue of foreign policy did Bush achieve. The Middle East is a mess, outside of Reagan and Gorbachev, we did not pursue any closeness to Russia and we need to drop this silliness with Cuba.

On the domestic front you need to invest in the infrastructure, in energy independence, and do everything you can to create a middle class, instead of tearing it down as the last 8 years. 

There is no coalition with just tax cuts for the rich as people lose jobs. There is no coalition when you talk of social issues. We have seen a trillion dollars go to Iraq and nothing for our cities. I guess you can argue federalist talking points, but in the end our economy was drained by 1 trillion dollars and our jobs are going overseas which is a global issue and in which states are unable to deal with. So it is up to the president to solve this issue. Republicans seem to be indifferent to what is going on. They are stuck on ideology. And as an Independent, I ask the question why we cannot work for America. And that is not to be snobbish to China, Mexico, or any other country. It is about investing in America as other countries invest in their countries. This is what you have to do in the age of globalization. 

Your biggest coalition is the middle class. There is probably no bigger coalition and you lost them. And now, what are you going to do to get them back?

 

Please look up the definition of Laissez-Faire Capitalism.

Honestly, the broken record statement "We have witnessed 8 years of laissez-faire" is absolutely, utterly, completely incorrect.

Laissez-faire capitalism is an economic system. Capitalism involves the ownership of property by individuals. The individual's goal is to use this property, or capital (buildings, machines, and other equipment used to produce goods and services), to create income. Individuals and companies compete with one another to earn money. This competition between companies determines the amount of goods produced and the prices company owners may demand for these goods. The French term laissez-faire literally means "to let people do as they wish." Thus, supporters of laissez-faire capitalism do not want the government to interfere in business matters, or if governments do involve themselves in business matters, to keep government influence to a minimum. Although the economies of the United States and many other industrialized nations are highly capitalistic, there is no pure capitalist system. 

The fact that you couple "laissez-faire capitalism" with "8 years" indicates you are trying to tie this to the Bush Administration.  We are all aware that the Bush Administration, just exactly like all United States Government Administrations, practiced crony capitalism, Ethanol and other business subsidies, corporate welfare to Big Oil, no-bid contracts such as the ones awarded to Halliburton, and so on.  This is not laissez-faire capitalism, it is a form of corporate socialism - as are the bailouts which were initiated under the Bush Administration and continue under the Obama Administration.  And far from the Bush Administration allowing Wall Street financial institutions to run amok, it is far more likely that the Bush (and every other) Administration actually takes its marching orders from the Central Banking institutions (which remain largely anonymous behind the front organization of the Federal Reserve, which is as "federal" as Federal Express).  The Federal Reserve is a front organization for a monopoly of private banking cartels.  I repeat, the Fed is private and not accountable or transparent in any way to rube taxpayers like you and me.   When you see so little difference in economic policies between Bush and Obama, why wouldn't you begin to consider the possibility that neither of these administrations is actually "running the government", that all administrations are being gamed by a much more powerful cartel of economic and political interests? 

You might as well start referring to the ClintonBushObama Administration and the last SEVENTEEN years of failed business-as-usual policies now, except that (a) it goes back much farther than that, and (b) Obama has successfully flaunted the Rule of Law and is more openly practicing Fascism (which is not right wing, small-government oriented, in fact it is statist, corporatist and large-government oriented) than any of his predecessors since Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Your other broken-record idea is that free trade is responsible for the loss of American jobs.  Please note that the rising costs of goods associated with looming trade wars thanks to the Obama Administration's abrogation of existing contracts such as NAFTA, coupled with Chu's recommendation for a carbon tax on China, will not create more American jobs - it will do just the opposite. The more expensive goods become, the more businesses will close or the more shifts will close in existing businesses. Even grocery stores won't need to have as many employees on hand once the shelves begin to empty from all the Latin American products and fresh produce which we can no longer grow in California now that our farm irrigation water has been shut off because of environmental activists.  And Nancy Pelosi's description of illegal immigration enforcement as "Un-American", also abrogates the Rule of Law and defends taking jobs away from "Americans" (I use the word very loosely these days since the definition has become so fungible). 

Please keep up with the news - or if you don't have time for that, watch it on MSNBC.  There you'll hear such liberal luminaries as Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow and Mika Brzezinski roundly criticize the hypocrisy of the Obama Administration in implementing every single policy that will do the most harm to American jobs, prosperity and economic security in ways that you never dreamed possible under the reign of your so-called Evil Republicans.  All administrations display stupidity, ignorance of history and economics, lack of prioritization, and make extremely costly errors.  Your personal war on George Bush and Capitalism does nothing except distract you from critically thinking about what's going on right under your very nose today.  We are entering a period of the greatest risk of tyranny since the nation was founded. Wake up, smell the coffee, and do your homework in the areas of current events, history and economics.  Don't just wake up, look up above and beyond what you think is obvious or local.  The real problem is actually extragovernmental, thus it does not matter which party or prevailing ideology is in power. 

yes, but the tyranny will not come under Obama.

that's just a motherfucking stupid idea.

The tyranny will strike, most likely, in England, rising to power on a wave of anti-Muslim hysteria.

The rightist reactionaries in this country, should they wish it, may rise to power on a wave of anti-Mexican hysteria, once Mexico goes failed state.

You completely undermine your credibility, by ascribing Fascism to the Obama administration. And, quite frankly, you piss me the fuck off, by not understanding your own definitions.

There is no sign that Obama is attempting to create a single party rule -- far from it!

Likewise, there is no ultramilitaristic aspect to his Administration (nor even was there to Bush's).

Obama clearly does not see a world war as the way to end the current depression.

Instead, he's printing money like crazy.

What part of this says fascism?

There was a Wall Street organized coup attempted on FDR. That's a more likely predecessor to fascism than any election, ever.

 

If you seriously expect Obama to survive for eight years, what the fuck are you smoking? I want something like that to relax ME! The secret service is actively calling for help, for christs sake!

Colorado Springs, July 2nd, 2008

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Please feel free to get as pissed-off as you please with my interpretation of Fascism, which is based on Mussolini's own definition of it known as Corporatism.

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and Corporate Power.

As for what I may or may not be smoking, I ceased smoking it over 20 years ago and I highly recommend the same to anyone who wishes to divorce themselves from wishful thinking, fantasy, revisionist history and good old garden variety denial.

In the 1930's the Supreme Court declared that the National Iindustrial Recovery Act and the Agricultural Adjustment Act (fodder for Ayn Rand's Anti Dog Eat Dog Act, undoubtedly) were unconstitutional.  In 1937, FDR proposed that when any Supreme Court justice who had reached age 70 did not resign or retire, one additional justice could be added to the Court.  Just like Obama today, FDR's public-works projects were corrupt.  These jobs were distributed not in the areas of greatest need such as Southern states where Roosevelt had already secured 67% of the vote, but in Western states where there was a much greater need to purchase future votes.  Just like union members, WPA workers were pressured into supporting candidates favored by FDR.  Senate committee investigations revealed that WPA employees were instructed to contribute a portion of their salaries to the President's reelection campaign if they wished to remain employed so your assessment that Wall Street was more likely a predessor to fascism than FDR seems to be a matter of interpretation - not that I am in the least opposed to conflating the overlords of the Central Bank with fascist corporatists. 

do you mean like the Civilian Defense Force

thingummy that Dr. Brin is on? because I'm really not sure what the Fuck people are talking about, and when I hear shit like this, I'd rather we talk about what's actually going on.

Three cheers if it means training people on how to drive trucks, boo if it means breaking windows (re: breaking windows fallacy). More cheers if it means stopping pandemics, or making sure that hoovervilles are actually up to spec.

Fascism involves the state directing a lot of the corporate interests, and providing a lot of the money. I don't see this as what's actually going on -- for one thing, blackmailing our president does not seem to be much of an indication of fascism. And make no mistake, that is what is going on, at the present time. [I have my sources]

(yes, I'm quite familiar with FDR's shit on the supreme court. bad fdr, no biscuit)

you aren't providing sources on the other stuff. would you mind obliging me with some?

Likewise, AIG threatening to collapse the entire fiscal world does not seem to be much about Fascism.

Happy to link you up with The New Deal: Reputation and Reality

You can read The New Deal: Reputation and Reality here.  There are various sources written by conservative historians such as Burton W. Folsom, Jr., historian, author and professor at Hillsdale College as well as libertarian historian Jim Powell of the CATO institute. Another good source is eh.net (economic history.net) and Thomas Woods' Politically Incorrect Guide to American History

This is one of the more scholarly excerpts, from eh.net:

Using this data source to investigate the relationship between WPA appropriations to the states and state economic conditions makes the administration’s claims of allocating dollars to where need was greatest difficult to support. Instead, evidence supports a political motivation to the pattern of expenditures. While the legislation that funded the WPA sailed through the House, a vocal minority in the Senate argued against the measure -- a fact the Roosevelt administration did not forget. “Hopkins devoted considerable attention to his relations with Congress, particularly from 1935 on. While he continually ignored several Congressmen because of their obnoxious ways of opposing the New Deal . . . he gave special attention to Senators . . . who supported the work relief program (Charles 1963, p. 162).

Empirical results confirm Charles’ assertion; WPA dollars flowed to states whose Senators voted in favor of the 1935 legislation. Likewise, if the state’s Senators opposed the measure, significantly fewer work relief dollars were distributed to the state.

The matching funds required to ‘buy’ WPA appropriations were not uniform from state-to-state. The Roosevelt administration argued that allowing them discretion to determine the size of the match would enable them to get projects to the states with fewer resources. Senator Richard Russell of Georgia complained in a Senate speech, “the poorer states . . . are required to contribute more from their poverty toward sponsored projects than the wealthier states are” (Congressional Record 1939, p. 921). Senator Russell entered sponsor contributions from each state into the Congressional Record. The data support the Senator’s assertion. Citizens in relatively poor Tennessee were forced to contribute 33.2 percent toward WPA projects while citizens in relatively rich Pennsylvania were required to contribute only 10.1 percent toward their projects. Empirical evidence supports the notion that by lowering the size of the match, Roosevelt was able to put more projects into states that were important to him politically (Couch and Smith, 2000).

The WPA represented the largest program of its kind in American history. It put much-needed dollars into the hands of jobless millions and in the process contributed to the nation’s infrastructure. Despite this record of achievement, serious questions remain concerning whether the program’s money, projects, and jobs were distributed to those who were truly in need or instead to further the political aspirations of the Roosevelt administration.

Full disclosure:  My library also includes conservative historian Paul Johnson, libertarian and conservative economists Sowell, Hayek, DeSoto and Mises; and conservative economic historian Heilbroner, but is ideoligically balanced with Zinn, Chomsky, Klein, Stiglitz and Roubini (some of which are more globally oriented).  There is a very distinct reason why I eschew Keynesian economics in favor of the Austrians, but I'm not an apologist for any government administration because all of them are screwed up in some fashion or another.  That's what power does to elites and leaders, and it's our responsibility to limit it.  Anyone (and this is not directed at you, btw) who invokes Godwin's Law regarding the "failed policies of the Bush Administration" being worse than Hitler is completely ignorant of American and World History. 

thanks, I'll read this when I get a chance.

so long as it's not amity schaes, I'm happy! (and at least moderately happy to take your word on it).

Comparisons to Hitler are a little over the top (okay, try way over the top, unless you're Riverbend who's actually lived through the genocide -- even then, Bush wasn't trying to be genocidal). Limited comparisons to Nixon seem valid. ;-)

What do you think about the Fed's annoucement yesterday that they're going to print money like CRAZY? (bad days to be China or Japan, methinks).

I understand the corruption

I understand the corruption and cronyism that government does. And it is everywhere. But does it mean that we give up on an electric grid, a new air traffic control system that will better our economy and commerce. We have to move on. We still have to maintain our infrastructure. We need to compete with other countries. China is building their infrastructure. I am sure the communist elite is padding their pockets in case they are chased out of power. Just the same China is building, and they are buying up raw materials for the future. We sit with failed ideologies, with rising unemployment, more without healthcare, no growth, deficits and debt, and the list goes on. Come up with an answer to make our country better. 

Liberty will never be a failed ideology

I am certain it will cycle back into style again in far more creative and dynamic ways than we can possibly imagine at the moment.

Chaos and System theory inform us that nothing happens without making the universe a bit more disorganised and messy, in general there is a tendency of available energy to dwindle and entropy is a measure of the systems-universe disorder.  Once social organizations reach a state of static equilibrium, entropy begins to occur. This unintended process occurs until the system is thrown out of its static state with new inputs or process changes, or the system fails. Currently many are saying the markets have failed and capitalism has failed, but that's only because they haven't peeled back the layers of distortion to see that it's actually certain policies and deceptions that have failed.

To challenge the onslaught of entropy, the system must reorganize itself into a higher state of complexity (change its outputs over time). Once we identify a way to for the system components or processes to evolve, the risk of entropy is lessened. After new actions are taken or inputs are changed, the process to avoid system decline due to entropy begins again. Once growth has stopped, the decline of the system is inevitable.

The good news for us is that human growth will never stop.  And while people may appear to content themselves with a state of serfdom (indebtedness, low income, unemployment and fewer opportunities) during a crisis such as war, depression/recession, natural disaster, etc., it is human nature to strive for freedom, liberty and to be more productive and live better than we currently are.  And that is precisely what "Wall Street" character Gordon Gekko really meant when he lectured the stockholders in the company he was about to take over that "Greed is Good".  We are just as greedy for quality of life, healthy environments, independence from foreign (and domestic) masters and a better world for our children as the derivatives traders were for higher profits.  It's really a matter of channeling that same energy into different, more positive outputs. 

Obama is making a lot of mistakes, but the universe is self-correcting his and others' mistakes through its amazing feedback loop.  Ultimately the world will be a better place. 

capitalism hasn't failed. people who are saying that are...

really really dumb. What we may be seeing is a failure of limited outlook capitalism, the idea that 30 minutes into the future investing can actually create more wealth than it destroys.

see, it's that argument -- that people don't like to be serfs

that has led one of my liberal friends (he likes Austrian economists, mind) to suggest that paying a gov't dole wouldn't be such a bad idea in America. There's enough social incentives that folks would work anyway...

I don't think that Obama's made too many egregious mistakes, though nationalization is one of them.... ;-)

 

you sound overly confident.

isn't it at all, barest shred of doubt possible for your ideology to be wrong?

my jaw drops at this line...

An undistributed profits tax was placed on corporations to increase dividends and thereby stimulate consumption

I'd find it far more likely that the increase in dividends would have been intended to increase investment in stocks, myself. There's only so many packards one can buy, after all.

What do you think?

I find the public choice economics ideas laughably naive

in that they fail to account for the potential for blackmail, and non-rational decisionmaking in general. Blackmail is perhaps the quickest and dirtiest way for a small cadre of people to extract money and favors from government officials.

I find the public choice economics ideas laughably naive

in that they fail to account for the potential for blackmail, and non-rational decisionmaking in general. Blackmail is perhaps the quickest and dirtiest way for a small cadre of people to extract money and favors from government officials.

is it any wonder the world runs on it?

According to the dictionary;

According to the dictionary; "Laissez-faire is a policy or attitude of letting things take their own course without interfering. Economics abstention by governments from interfering in the workings of the free markets."

So what we have seen for 8 years is basically laissez-faire. In other words, tax cuts and you are on your own. The individuals are on their own, the cities and states are on their own. Only Bush had the right to take the money for his pet project called Iraq. I watched for 8 years as the deficit and debt go up and nothing done. "After all the free markets will correct everything. " I have watched all these years on free trade and our jobs went overseas and nothing done about it. "And after all the free markets will correct everything." I have watched the attack on science and nothing else done. "And after all the free markets will correct everything." So that is the attitude by the republicans.

And I have said repeatedly that you have balance what you do. If you send jobs overseas, then you have to make up for it in creating other jobs in infrastructure, energy independence, and other areas. China, South Korea, Japan, and other countries subsidize science and other areas to compete globally. We subsidize also, only as a last resort to keep plants here. We on the local level and state level pour millions to save our factories as the federal government does nothing. "After all free markets will correct everything."

I do not believe in some of the tactics that Obama is doing. Instead of a carbon tax, let us push new technologies and let us be the leader in it. Let us be energy independent. Let us have science. Let us fix the infrastructure. We have to have mandatory vocational training or trade schools before anyone graduates as we have to compete globally. We should look at all research and development. And not just tax cuts in hopes of creating jobs. So it is the whole involvement of management. 

As far as the post on this site and others in the GOP, I have not heard anything innovative. We are in the fight of our lives with globalization. We cannot compete with third world labor. We have seen the neglect of our infrastructure and future investments. It will take years to catch up. And that is where we are today. And all I hear is tax cuts, with nothing more to follow. Sounds like laissez-faire to me. Just more of the same. At least I will give Gingrich credit, he adds a little more thought. 

While the democrats are for big government and they have failed social programs, the republicans go their merry way with just tax cuts and free markets. And whatever happens, happens. I wonder how far one would get running a company like this. 

 

ideology is not the same thing as actual policy

lagomorph's definition of crony capitalism is extremely fucking apt with regards to bush, who threw people in jail if they woudln't do as he asked.

considerably less so with Regards to Clinton, but he too held grudges.

Obama? in comparison, a pussy.

We spent more money on TARP than on the entire war in Iraq

Six years of the War in Iraq cost us a total of $657B.  The TARP bill cost us $700B on 10/3/2008.

We're in the fight of our lives with entities that are far less obvious to you because you're so narrowly focused on the distraction of globalization that everything else is flying beneath your radar. Look to such stealthy economic villains as environmentalists, labor unions and the Central Banking system for answers. 

Environmentalists have prohibited permits on projects which would greatly benefit prosperity and (ironically) the environment such as nuclear power plants and alternative energy grids that are prevented from being built across lands that contain endangered species.  Unions are preventing Americans like yourself from obtaining jobs on Obama ARRA infastructure projects because these jobs are nothing more than payback for the campaign funding and GOTV efforts the unions provided to put Barack Obama and his cronies in power. We were told by Nancy Pelosi that enforcing existing immigration law is un-American. The Central Banking system, by artifically manipulating interest rates, has created every single boom and bust cycle since the Fed was first established by the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. 

Article I, Section 8, Clause 5, of the United States Constitution provides that Congress shall have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof and of any foreign coins. But that is not the case. The United States government has no power to issue money, control the flow of money, or to even distribute it - that belongs to a private corporation registered in the State of Delaware - the Federal Reserve Bank. 

In his new book Meltdown, Thomas E. Woods, Jr., explains how the Fed, which centrally plans monetary policy and interest rates, sowed the seeds of destruction by drastically reducing interest rates beyond levels that would otherwise have been set by a free market. "Making cheap credit available for the asking does encourage excessive leverage, speculation, and indebtedness," Mr. Woods writes. He adds, "Manipulating interest rates and thereby misleading investors about real economic conditions does in fact misdirect capital into unsustainable lines of production and discombobulate the market." This begins the authors' explanation of the boom-bust phenomenon and how an artificial boom, and the financial holocaust it leaves behind, can be perfectly clarified and understood in terms of the Austrian theory of the business cycle.

There is absolutely NOTHING Laissez-Faire about this form of so-called "Capitalism".  In fact this is not free market capitalism in any way, shape or form.  The markets have been under extremely strict governmental control since 1913.  Please look into this.  You can continue arguing without arming yourself with historic and economic facts, or you can spend an afternoon learning things that will absolutely blow your mind. 

And to circle back to Warner's original post, suppressed information about economics such that described by Woods should be the real focus of all fiscal conservatives be they Republican, Libertarian, other 3rd Parties or Democrats.  Yes, Virginia, there are fiscally conservative Democrats - just like the ones who originally refused to vote for Obama's obscene stimulus package and omnibus budget.  Social issues do matter, but we must get the economic house in order first and then we can have the rest of these conversations.  I believe you ultimately agree with that also, because under all the talking points rhetoric, you are (like most Americans) a common-sense person.  Life is not perfect, and coalitions within and among parties must find the best common denominator possible and strive for progress with all the other issues afterward.  Right now the best common denominator possible is recognition that we do not have free markets, and that the primary challenge of American economic policy is the Federal Reserve monopoly - especially since our government can print money, interest-free, without the Fed.  Alternative challenges are government corruption, scorched-earth take-no-prisoners environmental and union policies, and absolute lack of oversight of illegal and ill-advised activities on Wall Street. 

These problems cannot and should not be addressed by flagrant violations of Rule of Law including abrogating contracts such as those involved with NAFTA, home mortgages, or even wrongly crafted corporate bonuses for bailed out financial entities. Laissez-Faire Fascism is the worst possible response to historic mistakes and bad policies. These should be addressed by educating ourselves and our fellow citizens and supporting legislators who understand Austrian business cycle theory. Austrian economists recommend monetary reform aimed at avoiding credit-induced booms (resulting in the far-too-familiar credit-induced bust such as the one we are living through today). Hard money and decentralized banking are key elements of the Austrian reform agenda, thus we should also support legislation such as HR833.

And we have seen most of this

And we have seen most of this abuse under Bush with his ideology. What Bush did was the old "guns and butter" trick. LBJ did the same. Vietnam and the Great Society programs and we had inflation for 20 years. Bush has done the same, and that is tax cuts and his war and it was all borrowed money. Deficits and debt.

We have the perfect storm. Obama inherited deficits and debt, a financial crisis, a housing crisis, an auto crisis, free trade in which the middle class is losing jobs, healthcare, and pensions. Cities and states going broke. Nothing invested for the future. More people without healthcare. An infrastructure that needs fixing.  A recession and/or near depression. A military stretched thin on two wars.

In normal circumstances, you have tax cuts for two years along with the lowering of interest rates for economic growth. And you cut spending or raise tax accordingly to fix the budget. But all that changed under Bush. Bush used ideology to the fullest with his tax cuts and his deficits and debt. The Bush ideology was his way or no way, no matter how bad things got. 

So where do we go from here. We sit in a recession and you need to stimulate to get out of it. You cannot have just tax cuts as we just had 8 years of them and we are back into a recession. It would be more borrowed money and it does not solve the individual issues. Lowering interest rates will cause more inflation and the fed is doing that now. So the question is; How do you stimulate the economy and create economic growth? 

From Martin Wolf, Financial Times, C-span Thurs. 12 March 09

On the banking front. If you don't bail them out, then you risk the following.

1. Whole chain of banks to collapse.

2. Wiping out the assets of all the uninsured depositors and lenders.

3. The inability to lend.

4. Vast collapse of business on the demand side and supply side.

5. Unemployment would soar to extraordinary levels.

6. An economy with staggering credit and debt with 35 trillion dollars vulnerable.

7. Repeat the 29' & 30' experience all around the world.

8. Never been tried before.

 

As you say hard money is one key. But under Bush he claimed several times he believed in a strong dollar, but only to see it fall. He just did not care. So here we are. And now, how do we get out of this mess?

 

I invite you to read Meltdown, by Thomas Woods

Which is linked earlier at the Mises Institute site, and here at Amazon.com.  If you are not simply asking rhetorically how to get out of this mess, and in fact you really do want to know the answer, that's my recommendation - read the book.  The answer is not simply contained in a tidy little comment, it takes a degree of study and comprehension, especially if Austrian business cycle theory is a new concept.  Considering it's not taught in the propagandized public school and university system, it probably is a very new concept indeed. 

Wolf, like so many of today's economists, supports Keynes and says that Friedman's monetarist ideas are now obsolete.  Due to the fact that monetarists sought to have the Federal Reserve expand money supply during recessions and contract it during booms inclines me to agree with Wolf that Friedman was off on entirely the wrong track - and so he was, until he reversed his policy, (around 1959) and discovered that the Federal Reserve has often been the very source of economic stability in the United States.  In addition to vulnerability to simple human error, a Central Bank is also vulnerable to political influence without regard for economic logic.  For example, Central Banks can easily undertake expansionary monetary policies to help their chosen candidates get elected and let the nation deal with the inflationary consequences after their political masters are safely in office.

The mere existence of a Central Bank eventually caused Friedman so much grief that he began to devise more and more draconian ways to control it, which caused him to cross swords on several occasions with Friedrich A. von Hayek, who felt that the Central Bank ought to be completely dissolved, with commercial banks free to issue as much of their own currency as they wished, ideally backed by commodities (including but not limited to gold).  Friedman, however, was more in favor of an unbacked Central Bank money supply. 

The collapse that purist liquidationists demand would lead to what is often called economic Shock Therapy, a very painful period that usually involves high unemployment, high prices, the necessity to purge government corruption and greatly restrict government spending.  Ideally this is followed by the market (and government) resolving itself in a vibrant and robust manner, as happened in Poland after the fall of Communism but not so much in Bolivia around the same time frame. 

I'm encapsulating a few volumes into brief paragraphs here, but I do want to provide the message that there are answers and alternatives out there, and none of them are painless - yet some have better ultimate outcomes than others including prosperity, liberty, reform and higher standards of living for everyone. Please take note that I have not once mentioned "tax cuts for the wealthy", nor does Woods.  Government spending, and revenues as a percent of national income, is a better indicator of the size of the government. If government cuts taxes, but not spending, it still gets the money from somewhere—either by borrowing or inflating. Either method robs the productive sector. Oftentimes cuts in personal income taxes are shifted into hidden business taxes, so it's really more important to cut spending than it is to cut taxes.  If you're waiting for me to recommend the Republicans need to change their broken record, well...I just did.  ;-)

Perhaps the other Big Topic we should be discussiong, in addition to economics, is what kind of education system is in our best interest as well.  If the one we have now does not foster competitive ideas and free exchange of philosophies and ideologies so that people can "shop around" for solutions and approaches without having one specific philosophy forced upon them by an academically biased establishment, Educational Choice should be the other Big Tent Issue because it will drag a host of other economic and social issues along in its wake.

I have no problem with a

I have no problem with a sound monetary system. It would take many years, perhaps 20 years to get there. The social programs, like medicare, need to be cut back. If a president wants to have a war, he has to come up with the money. Either raise a tax or cut spending and that would make people think twice in what a president wants to do. Ideologies only go so far. If they start to fail as we have seen for 5 years, then you have to reverse course. So that means trickle down was failing and free trade was failing.

You also have to have sound policies with the problems of the day. Do we need energy independence? Do we need more science? Do we keep religion out of government? Do we take care of our infrastructure? Do we have mandatory vocational training (as supported by the Hudson Institute) as we lose our manufacturing? What will propel us into the future or do we remain stagnant as we have been doing.

All we have been doing is borrow for tax cuts, borrow for war, deficits and debt, failures all around, more bailouts, and more borrowing. And we are doing nothing for the future of this country, although Obama is supporting projects for the future. 

I don't know about running a country without a central bank. All countries have a central bank. All it requires is discipline. However, they are influenced by presidents. LBJ put a lot of pressure on the fed for his war and the Great Society programs. And the last few years we have seen what ideology has done to this country. LBJ and Bush are totally identical in what they did. One with inflation and the other with deficits and debt. They wanted their pet projects. We (at least I) saw it 5 years ago and nothing was done. And all we heard is "I believe in a strong dollar" and "America, has no problems."

And all I can say. And this has nothing to do with republicans or democrats. That Bush is a total nut case. 

Let's face it, they're all nutty

Bush is just the one who received the worst press the most recently.  I think Joe Scarborough rather aptly referred to him as The Lamb of God who was sacrificed for all of our sins. 

Poor Reagan literally lost his mind in the White House as a result of senile dementia, Clinton was so crazy he thought that fellatio wasn't actually having sex (a perfect excuse for all teenagers from that day forward), Bush Sr. thought it was perfectly acceptable to fight an entire war for 30 days without remaining in town long enough to (a) prevent our Shiite allies from being slaughtered by the millions and (b) rebuilding the nation the war had destroyed. Carter thought it was a great idea to assist the Ayatollah Khomeini into power because after all, the deeply religious fundamentalists would never ally themselves with those Godless Communists, and let's not even get started on Nixon's mania and Kissinger's "pragmatism".  And will you ever forget the photo of Albert Thomas winking at LBJ with JFK's widow in the foreground as he's being sworn in after Kennedy's assassination?  That was a total OMG WTF! moment.  Then we rewind to Timothy Leary's book exposing his distribution of LSD to JFK while they both partied with Mary Pinchot-Meyer in the White House...I mean c'mon, the list is simply endless and we've only gone back as far as 1960.

I begin to think the whole world is nutty...

from a former ceo of a major computing corporation:

"Every day, the image of Gitmo being repurposed for bankers seems less like a funny, ironic image and more like a necessary step to restoring real confidence in the system. In fact, it seems politically inevitable."

you KNOW it's a bad fucking plan when even the billionaires are fucking pissed.

if there was actually any interest in education

as opposed to corporate brainwashing, I'd be much happier.

High School is designed to make good factory workers, and that's it.

I don't particularly think that America's government does too much spending that I would consider objectionable (as much as I like to bitch about paying more than my fair share of taxes, I do get a good deal out of what I pay)

I am going to attempt to

I am going to attempt to answer you, although blindly as I have not read the book "meltdown." Have read as much as I could with the blogs and responses from other readers. Over 90% give a positive response to the book.

First in answer to Milton Friedman, as I recall reading his book some 20 years ago, he said something to the fact that a computer would be just as good as the Federal Reserve. He figured some 2% production rate in creating money, or in par with gold. The problem with this is it would be too restrictive in times of war or some other calamity. I am not saying I am for or against what he says, it is just something to keep in mind.

I do not believe you can (as Thomas E. Woods suggests) that you can compare one recession or depression to another. They are all different, although they have been stimulated one way or the other to get out of a recession. In the 1920 recession he refers to is that the way out by Harding was to reduce taxes and cut the regulation. And obviously this created the roaring twenties. So what did we get with the roaring twenties? More speculation and then failure. 

I guess there is a reference in not having business cycles, I don't know. We have always had business cycles in our lives. 

Now here is the problem. The last 8 years we have had lower taxes and reduced regulation and we are back into a recession. And to have lower taxes that would mean more in deficits, unless you cut spending. And to cut spending with 535 congressmen and senators is political suicide. However, a president must make every attempt to do so. Many congressmen do not like the idea of commissions to tackle this, but this is what I would favor. And you tackle each big area of government. Like a committee on Medicare and its recommendations. 

But even if you do what Woods says, then the question is how much damage will be done to the economy to let various banks to collapse. What will it do to the rest of the world. How much unemployment will rise. How much protectionism will there be. And certainly the deficit would rise with higher unemployment.

Now, he says there would be a recovery. In that case, what will we have a recovery in? The driving force of our nation for decades has been manufacturing and that area has been in a downturn for a number of years and cities and states are going broke. There are counties in Ohio and Michigan that are hitting 13% to 17% unemployment. A lot of those jobs are not coming back. The fact remains is that free trade is doing damage to our economy. And we have not prepared for it. Certainly, the thinking of Wall Street and in Washington was that this would all be good. But what it does is make people lose middle class jobs, less in pay if they find work some place else, less in healthcare, and less in pensions. So just tax cuts does not do the trick. There has to be a catalyst to get things going such as energy independence, and whatever else. The other problem is that our stores are full of Chinese goods. So buying in the economy is not the total answer either. This so called ideology has apparently failed for the middle class and the Midwest and you need a solution for this.

So I just wonder, if Woods idea is as great as it seems. I mean we have heard of Laffer and supply side economics and we have deficits and debt. Add to that cronyism from Wall Street to Washington. We have had ideology up the wazoo by Bush and here we are in a big mess. Bush lived by ideology and it brought this country down, as he never corrected the low dollar, the deficits and debt, never cut spending, and the failure of free trade. 

The fed as you said or someone has said can easily be influenced by the president. It is supposed to be separate. In a perfect world getting out of a recession is that you should have around two years of tax cuts, two years of lower interest rates to get out of a recession. After that the fed raises interest rates in order not to create inflation and the president and congress has to work on the budget. Somehow, nothing gets achieved. 

I do believe that we would have business cycles and they are inherent with a free market economy. Even without this financial crisis, the Bush economy with 8 years of tax cuts were tiring out. I also think we can make recessions shallow or deep depending what they do in Washington. This recession is deeper because of free trade, Wall Street, and deficits and debt. The factories are closed up, so that is aggravating this recession. Our country has to invest in its infrastructure, in energy independence, in mandatory vocational training, in science, in its country, people, and the future. And that is what has been missing for so many years. That is the only way out of this mess, but it cannot be done overnight. This is not some central planning. It is investing in our country, and not some ideological scheme like housing.

Another problem in what makes everything worse is that we create new programs and do not fix the old. This compounds our problems and makes our government ineffective. Someone on this board said we need to support the F 22 raptor program and save jobs. While that may be commendable, the problem is we have B 52's that are 50 years old. So in effect, we don't solve our problems, we just push them aside and spend more money. And this goes on in every part of our government.

As far as the Federal Reserve, I don't know of a country that does not have a central bank. What all this boils down to is people and institutions making mistakes, they take their eye off the ball, the fed president accommodates the president, a fed president by etiquette does not tell a president what to do. The president has enormous powers and if he believes in a failed ideology-that is the road we go on.

As far as gurus like Woods or Krugman or anyone else, we can only believe so much. I do not believe there is some perfect economics. I do believe that the president, congress, and the fed has to act accordingly and do what they are supposed to do. But we all know that politics gets in the way. You have to manage (not central planning) to keep up with the times. We have to compete in a globalized world in which we are losing. It is time for Washington to do the right things. And that is a dream world in itself.

 

Good, thoughtful post

I agree that one should not kneel at the feet of economic gurus be they Woods, Friedman, Krugman, et al - after all, economics is a social science which is nearly impossible to perfectly model, so good for you for being skeptical.  As a conservative, I lean towards the realistic rather than the utopian ideal, so I am comfortable with 'good enough' over 'perfect'.

To respond to RisingTide about the "ideology" of liberty expressed through capitalism (among other expressions such as personal responsibility, and so on), I honestly do believe in liberty as a universal striving. Even when people seek collectivity, I don't think they seek it for the purpose of subverting their own freedom. What we're seeing on Wall Street and in Washington is not capitalism, and is not free.  It's a perversion of freedom which we may discover is either a criminal perversion, an ideological perversion, or both. Liberty doesn't give people the right to steal, squander, or destroy the lives of others.  Personal responsibility must be a cornerstone of liberty, along with a set of ethical core values that are, I suppose, as nicely expressed in the 10 Commandments as anywhere. 

Statistics don't bleed, as they say, and the human toll of the economic power grab being superimposed on the hard-working people of this country (and the world, for that matter) is not showing up on the news except from time to time.  The values of extraordinary power, secrecy, incompetency, greed, cronyism, deception, ill-gotten gains, corporatist rescues and subversion of our freedom and quality of life that support this crisis represent, to me, all that is base and evil in the world. I think Bush was a dupe.  I don't know what to think about Cheney. Congress deeply concerns me with its potentially corrupt and incompetent members.  I'm not sure if they are in the majority, but it's entirely possible - and the fact that we have elected them makes us dupes also - which is why we have a real responsibility to educate ourselves as much as is possible given the lack of media curiosity (and probable complicity). But the rulers who really concern me are not political, they are financial.  They are the ones who are in control of millions of people and hundreds, if not thousands, of government entities.

I don't think there are any easy answers here.  Taking the country "back", if indeed it is even possible to do so, seems incredibly daunting.  With this week's events, I won't be at all surprised to see government or Obama critiques such as those raised by Santelli or Cramer subject their authors to detailed IRS scrutiny and potential jail time for violations that were completely overlooked for Geithner, Kirk, Daschle, Killifer, Solis, et al. 

Personal responsibility, I

Personal responsibility, I agree, should be a cornerstone, for the man on the street, the gal getting pregnant, Wall Street, business, and all those in government. I don't know how you measure it all, but things are out of whack.  

they've always been out of whack, dear heart.

things have never "been better" about personal responsiblity. You get the people who care, and the people who don't.

And then you get the murderers with a sense of personal responsibility.... those folks are weird.

Santelli and Cramer are just mouthpieces for Wall Street.

Listen to Hoopajoops, or some other folks who aren't being paid to fuck you over. It's not that I don't listen to Republicans... I just object to listening to any form of propaganda, when it is both quicker and easier to listen to more qualified experts on Calculated Risk.

Yeah, I am as well, way more concerned over the powergrabs by Wall Street (to include Dodd's infamous bankruptcy bill, which helped set the stage for all these housing foreclosures...), over allowing them to write our dang laws (smart politicians, while rarely honest, can be counted on to act in ways that will help their district. even if they always seem to take the mountainclimbing approach), than I am about what any politican will do.

Obama's not a bad guy, though I really wish he would nationalize things already. I just hope he has the balls to do it. I know that he's doing a better job than either Hillary or McCain would have done -- though that's not saying terribly much at this point.